Next S9 generation without map feature

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@prenj well it is possible to be done but it would require both devices to spend a significant amount of power more .

Prenj

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos Even with just manual sync only when you request it from the Suunto app on your phone? I don’t know if it’s possible to do just a partial sync with only current location and breadcrumb while route and poi-s are already there in the Suunto app.

Ok now I’m maybe leaning too much to the features interesting to those into hiking and similar activities involving navigation, but this would be a really useful feature in my opinion.

And for the impact on battery consumption, I guess it would be much smaller than with using the maps in the watch.

Fenr1r

@prenj If you’re choosing to see your position on the phone anyway, why not just use the phone’s GPS and the larger selection of fully downloadable (sometime higher-grade topo) maps available for other apps? Save battery on watch by leaving it alone on airplane mode?

Fenr1r

I wonder if it’s possible* and would save enough battery to be worthwhile, to have an option to load & display only a static, (zoom-able?) map of the current position. No automatic direction orientation, no off-pos panning. Loaded from memory only on request, perhaps as an S+ SAFE or POI component.

The point being simply one of faster, route-less, phone-free relative location confirmation. “Which trail/creek/cliff is this?” “Where am I along this river/fence line?” “How far am I into this forest/bog/quicksand … and (maybe using zoom) where is the nearest area that isn’t any of the above?”

The main obvious problems arise from the extra battery drain from the redraws during zooms and the loss of detail/clarity as the scale increases, so perhaps this baby-map/enhanced SAFE should be restricted to the highest detail map (& thus) tightest area. As long as the loading lag was shorter than firing up the phone or applying coords to a paper map, it would be a win.

It’s not unlike @Mff73’s route+trail junction-clarifier concept, only minus the route and, possibly, junction. But with, necessarily, an entire, detailed area map (at least as image tiles) on the watch. Just waiting.

*And if anyone else would even want it.

Prenj

@fenr1r said in Next S9 generation without map feature:

@prenj If you’re choosing to see your position on the phone anyway, why not just use the phone’s GPS and the larger selection of fully downloadable (sometime higher-grade topo) maps available for other apps? Save battery on watch by leaving it alone on airplane mode?

Because watch still has better battery life, but lacks big screen that would be beneficial for looking at the map. Most of the time I don’t need the map, route in the watch is just enough, but from time to time, I’d like to check the position in the map, identify some mountain peak, hut or something to get the better idea of my surroundings.

I don’t think checking the map from time to time on your phone, without use of phones GPS would affect the battery much.

Of course having offline maps in Suunto app would be great. I’d even be willing to buy detailed topo maps if the Suunto app offered this sync of location and breadcrumb, while showing chosen route and POI-s during activity.

DMytro

@prenj not every phone is build to last the way suunto watches are. I stash mine into a waterproof pocket of my trailrunning vest (convinient for hiking also) and use it rarely. I agree that map on the watch is not to look for small details, but would be nice to take the right turn. I think just this usecase can be solved without having an actual map. Just by adding way more waypoint types. Like three, four, five road crossings with the one to be taken highlighted.

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@дима-мельниченко 76 pois are in my watch. It displays them. I use them for triangulation etc even without a route

Prenj

@дима-мельниченко said in Next S9 generation without map feature:

@prenj not every phone is build to last the way suunto watches are. I stash mine into a waterproof pocket of my trailrunning vest (convinient for hiking also) and use it rarely. I agree that map on the watch is not to look for small details, but would be nice to take the right turn. I think just this usecase can be solved without having an actual map. Just by adding way more waypoint types. Like three, four, five road crossings with the one to be taken highlighted.

Of course it isn’t. And it doesn’t need to be. If it was and if it had battery life for 20h+ of always on display, for some use case, you could just strap it to your forearm and use app that you find convenient.

I just say that since there is already some syncing going in the background, maybe Suunto app could be utilized to offer maps to watches who can’t display them on watch display.

Ambit3 had a feature called “second screen” in Movescount app, that actually showed the map with your current position too. It was not utilizing the whole mobile phone screen, but it’s an example what could be done.

DMytro

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos well it’s not an automatic signal each turn, is it?
Probably fine to determine general direction, but not quite the thing for each specific turn, right?

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@дима-мельниченко POIS not waypoints.

So POIS like

Home
Peak at x
Water at X

Like having a whiteboard and putting all the POIS you know. It creates a visual reference to where you are in realation to this whiteboard grid

DMytro

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos yes, i got you. It’s a good way to have a feel for distance and your own position in the outdoors, but If you want to follow a specific route, it won’t do any good. I’m not complaining - just explaining my use case scenario.

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@дима-мельниченко correct

cosme.costa

I think we should differentiate two options:

1.- Maps in the watch for an adventure without following any route: Here I do not have experience and I do not believe that such a tiny screen can help.

2.- Following routes: I think we put a lot of importance to the map in the watch and not in the fact that most of the maps providers do not have all the trails or paths marked. I mean, how many of us have downloaded a popular route that then when you check it in SA is not following the map paths? This happens a lot in my area, you use trails that are not in the maps. So, here the use of the map is to check if you have something around you, for that you need tod zoom out in a watch, and again you hit with the tiny screen.

I like how it works now, but I would like to something more visual to follow routes, like arrows where there is a crossing (no text). Something that let me run faster when following a route. If I’m not running or not doing a tempo run is not a big deal because you do not loose to much time when you miss one crossing.
I have a bike computer (Garmin) with maps for my MTB rides and in my opinion is better for some tricky crossings and when you are a little bit lost to see if you have some path around you but not much more. In fact, when you have two paths that have a little angle between them you can also be in the wrong one having a map, it has happened to me.

Bulkan

For me there are two things:

Maps like the S7 has implemented in a brilliant way. Are useful, really useful when you are exploring
Routing maps. Here is where the challenge is very big. Only one brand has maps but they had the technology before and the resources.

If I need a map is because I’m for more of one hour and in that case I wear a vest 2L with hydration (here is very sunny, humidity…) so I finally carry a TwoNav with vector, raster, the heatmaps of strava and orto maps.

Would I like to have maps? Yes but is not as easy as looks like reading @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos.

Fenr1r

@cosmecosta

For 1. There is the at-a-glance position-off-paths I mentioned above. It does require high quality maps, tho’. Possibly better than OSM for the reasons you give in …

Absolutely … which is why @Mff73’s icon suggestion seems good. Assuming the planner SW represents the junction accurately at all, it should get the number of crossing paths correct*. Thus you only need to know which notionally numbered exit to use, not its real-world departure angle.

(*Also assuming no additional tracks have been stomped thru’ in the interim.)

SaasFreak

@zhang965 For this reason, there was no fenix 4. 4 is a Chinese unlucky number.

wakarimasen

Having spent the last three days comparing a Polar Vantage V, a Garmin Fenix 3 HR and a Suunto SSWHR Baro for navigating walking routes, I think how the watch handles the navigation is much more important that having a map present. With all three units provided with the same rout via Komoot:

the Polar stubbornly refused to accept we were on the route, once we had strayed off (even though we were back on again)
the Garmin couldn’t make its mind up if we on the route or not

Only the Suunto navigated without problem, even though we strayed from the path once or twice. It even showed us where the path was (not so the Polar) and where we had already walked (not the case with either of the other two).

Capability of following a route is, in my opinion, much more important than showing topological details.

surfboomerang

@wakarimasen said in Next S9 generation without map feature:

Capability of following a route is, in my opinion, much more important than showing topological details.

I agree. However, showing a route on top of a (static) map layer can help you greatly by making decisions. Just a route line is not clear enough in some situations. Sure, you will get back on track eventually, but it could have been avoided with a map layer.

sky-runner

My experience running with Ambit3 is that with a breadcrumb route and navigational waypoints at every turn, the map is unnecessary for the most part. I did multi-hour trail runs with Ambit3 with multiple turns, never having to pull my phone to look at the map. But having directions at every trail junction is important.

So now that Suunto App can generate directions, perhaps that fulfills most of navigational needs.

But I should say that the way navigation waypoints are handled on Suunto 9 is still inadequate. Ideally I’d want to see a next turn along with a distance to it permanently at the bottom of breadcrumbs screen - the way Garmin and Polar display that. The area at the bottom of that screen isn’t very useful to me when navigating anyway - that corresponds to what’s directly behind me.

Another point is that mixing pre-generated navigation waypoints and other user specified waypoints is far from ideal. I know Garmin does that, but that feels completely broken when I try to use waypoints on a Garmin watch. Ideally I’d like to see navigational hints (turns) but also independently track distance to a next user (non-turn) waypoint, such as an aid station. The watch could filter those automatically.

DMytro

@sky-runner I think there similar points raised before and suunto probably knows about it. Let’s see what the future will unfold!