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Trying to understand how CTL, ATL and TSB are calculated in Suunto App

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  • M Offline
    MarioPedraza
    last edited by 11 Jan 2024, 12:40

    ATL is the average of your TSS over the last seven days. So, if I haven’t trained in a week or 10 days, my ATL should be zero, but it isn’t. Why? How CTL and ATL are calculated? Thanks.

    I M 2 Replies Last reply 11 Jan 2024, 13:33 Reply Quote 0
    • I Offline
      isazi Moderator @MarioPedraza
      last edited by 11 Jan 2024, 13:33

      @MarioPedraza if it isn’t, it may be a bug. CTL is the 42 days TSS average, ATL the 7 days average. TSB is yesterday’s CTL - ATL.

      Watch: Suunto Vertical Ti

      Blog: isazi's home

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      • I isazi moved this topic from The Lounge on 11 Jan 2024, 13:34
      • M Offline
        Mads Hintz-Madsen @MarioPedraza
        last edited by 11 Jan 2024, 13:50

        Hmmm, I think that the statement “ATL is the average TSS over the last seven days” may not be entirely correct. According to Training Peaks:

        "…
        TrainingPeaks calculates ATL, by default, as the exponentially weighted average of daily TSS for the past 7 days. Note that, in effect, ATL represents the training an athlete has done in the past two weeks given the nature of exponentially weighted averages.

        Formula
        ATLtoday = ATLyesterday + (TSStoday - ATLyesterday) (1/ATL time constant)
        …"

        I guess that the time constant in the above formula (which is not limited to 7 days) is set so that the weighted average is roughly equivalent to a 7 day moving average. By doing it this way, you will have a more smooth rolloff in the ATL instead of a somewhat abrupt transition to zero when you haven’t done any training for 7 days.

        Source:
        https://help.trainingpeaks.com/hc/en-us/articles/204071894-Fatigue-ATL-

        I M 2 Replies Last reply 11 Jan 2024, 13:55 Reply Quote 2
        • I Offline
          isazi Moderator @Mads Hintz-Madsen
          last edited by 11 Jan 2024, 13:55

          @Mads-Hintz-Madsen good to know! Suunto is licensing these metrics from TrainingPeaks so they should work as defined by TrainingPeaks.

          Watch: Suunto Vertical Ti

          Blog: isazi's home

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          • M Offline
            MarioPedraza @Mads Hintz-Madsen
            last edited by 11 Jan 2024, 14:13

            Thanks @Mads-Hintz-Madsen.

            So we cannot calculate fatigue because we do not know how to calculate the ATL time constant. Well, we have it in Suunto App, it was out of curiosity.

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            • M Offline
              MarioPedraza
              last edited by 11 Jan 2024, 14:38

              More info if interested.

              https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/Slowtwitch_Forums_C1/Triathlon_Forum_F1/Help_me_understand_the_pmc_calculations_of_ctl_and_atl_P5530452/

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              • M Offline
                MarioPedraza
                last edited by 24 Jan 2024, 12:08

                Now that I have a 30-day trial on Training Peaks, I see that the TSS values ​​calculated by Suunto App is different from the TSS value of TP. So CTL, ATL and TSB do not match. In my case, I use Stryd so the TSS calculation takes power, and I have all the values ​​​​correctly configured in both places. Shouldn’t they be the same?

                B 1 Reply Last reply 24 Jan 2024, 13:39 Reply Quote 0
                • B Offline
                  Brad_Olwin Moderator @MarioPedraza
                  last edited by 24 Jan 2024, 13:39

                  @MarioPedraza You need to have zones set up the same in both. My TSS values match.

                  Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

                  H M 2 Replies Last reply 24 Jan 2024, 14:20 Reply Quote 0
                  • H Offline
                    herlas Silver Members @Brad_Olwin
                    last edited by herlas 24 Jan 2024, 14:20

                    @Brad_Olwin this has been discussed many times before, Stryd zones are defined with upper zone 3 limit as the FTP value, Suunto on the other hand uses upper zone 4 as the FTP and this is fixed there’s no setting.

                    This makes all power-based workouts on Suunto to have TSS under-estimated.

                    Training Peaks allows to set FTP value on its own, meaning not tied to a zone.

                    I’ve been using TP TSS scores and updating my Suunto workout TSS for almost the last 3 years that I’ve using Stryd to have same realistic values. Tendencies will be similar when not doing so but numbers will not be close to what they are.

                    Hope this helps @MarioPedraza

                    FYI https://forum.suunto.com/topic/6945/running-tss-power-based-need-option-to-set-ftp?_=1706106190848

                    SRS Ti
                    A3P (drill mode for pool swimming 🤦🤷)
                    Galaxy Z Flip 3 / Galaxy S24+

                    M B 2 Replies Last reply 24 Jan 2024, 14:44 Reply Quote 0
                    • M Offline
                      MarioPedraza @Brad_Olwin
                      last edited by 24 Jan 2024, 14:31

                      @Brad_Olwin That’s how I set it, but the values ​​are different in my case. Who knows…

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • M Offline
                        MarioPedraza @herlas
                        last edited by 24 Jan 2024, 14:44

                        @herlas Thanks.

                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • B Offline
                          Brad_Olwin Moderator @herlas
                          last edited by 24 Jan 2024, 15:29

                          @herlas OP did not say power. I don’t use power, mostly HR.

                          Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

                          H 1 Reply Last reply 24 Jan 2024, 15:34 Reply Quote 0
                          • H Offline
                            herlas Silver Members @Brad_Olwin
                            last edited by 24 Jan 2024, 15:34

                            @Brad_Olwin it’s there but no worries 🙂

                            SRS Ti
                            A3P (drill mode for pool swimming 🤦🤷)
                            Galaxy Z Flip 3 / Galaxy S24+

                            B 1 Reply Last reply 24 Jan 2024, 16:07 Reply Quote 0
                            • B Offline
                              Brad_Olwin Moderator @herlas
                              last edited by 24 Jan 2024, 16:07

                              @herlas OP quote in first post
                              ATL is the average of your TSS over the last seven days. So, if I haven’t trained in a week or 10 days, my ATL should be zero, but it isn’t. Why? How CTL and ATL are calculated? Thanks.

                              Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

                              M 1 Reply Last reply 24 Jan 2024, 17:17 Reply Quote 0
                              • M Offline
                                MarioPedraza @Brad_Olwin
                                last edited by MarioPedraza 24 Jan 2024, 17:17

                                @Brad_Olwin Ok

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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