ZoneSense
-
@Brad_Olwin please forget your enthusiasm about ZoneSense for a second and don’t try to convince me that is the best invention since sliced bread. I already know that
Please take a look again on the data I provided. Just look at the numbers:
-
ZoneSense gave me this in the workout: LT1 at 148 bpm and 56 minutes green - aka below LT1 - and 7 minutes yellow.
-
Looking just at the HR for the very same workout: LT1 was set to 152 bpm and I have been 33 minutes below that and 40 minutes above it.
How can I be 40 minutes above 152bpm and at same time be only 7 minutes above 148bpm? That is what I’m trying to understand.
As I keep attempting to say the 148 is an estimate made by ZS and only an estimate. You are too fixated on what a zone is. For example, you could be at 150 and in ZS green if the R-R data suggests you are below anaerobic. These are NOT fixed zones and 148 to 152 is a small difference. ZS is estimating aerobic and anaerobic efforts based on R-R data and is well correlated to a tested population in published studies.
I stated before that the HR numbers are an estimate whether done by a lab or by ZS. So, you were 40 min above 152. How much of that was anaerobic and how much was aerobic? Your body does not function as a switch. There is no hard zone where at 148 you are 100% aerobic and at 149 100% anaerobic. My point I keep trying to make. The numbers do not accurately depict your physiology. I am a prof and my lab does research on skeletal muscle repair and aging focusing on stem cells. Your muscle is highly adaptable and while HR generally will match your effort, your LT1 likely varies by at least 30 bpm depending on training, stress, fatigue, etc. Also, the physiological tests to measure LT1 are not precise.
I will agree that ZS is relatively new and likely could use some improvements but I have been running ultramarathons for 15 years. Most studies suggest RPE is a far better judge of effort than HR numbers as your HR is dependent on so many extrinsic factors that are out of your control. For me, ZS matches my RPE so effectively that it is somewhat scary. In a workout I will want to go harder (my brain) but my body is fatigued and I find it hard to run as fast as I want……ZS matches that and typically I am way in the yellow when my zones say aerobic.
-
-
Recent cycling to the cottage I got 135bpm aerobic threshold. Cycling back after 1.5 hour, definitely tired a lot and I got higher 140bpm threshold on that ride. I was expecting lower value on way back.
-
@Brad_Olwin I think we are on the same page. ZoneSense is related to the stress of the heart, not to a HR. Understood. ZoneSense is useful, agreed.
So showing a single HR in the app that ZoneSense calculated as a threshold is simply wrong, as this HR is not a clear divider between aerobic and anerobic phases of the workout. Therefore all conclusions made out of this wrong data point are also wrong.
-
@Brad_Olwin I think we are on the same page. ZoneSense is related to the stress of the heart, not to a HR. Understood. ZoneSense is useful, agreed.
So showing a single HR in the app that ZoneSense calculated as a threshold is simply wrong, as this HR is not a clear divider between aerobic and anerobic phases of the workout. Therefore all conclusions made out of this wrong data point are also wrong.
By this logic, all LT1 measurements are wrong, whether done in a lab or by ZS. The estimate of LT1 by ZS is not “wrong” it is simply an estimate that you can use should you choose to do so. Same for a lab test LT1 “estimate”! What conclusions are you making that are wrong?
Use ZS for 10 runs where you get an LT1 estimate, average them and you will likely have a reasonable LT1 estimate. But the value that you choose to use is an estimate and does not divide your run/ride into aerobic and anaerobic metabolism. Your muscles simply don’t work that way! Aerobic metabolism engages the TCA cycle and uses O2 while complete anaerobic runs glucose through glycolysis but does not send the phosphoenolpyruvate into the TCA cycle. 100% anaerobic metabolism likely never happens. The point is that the TCA cycle will still operate when you are anaerobic as will glycolysis. It is utter fantasy to think that an HR number defines your physiological state.
So I will state again, it is simply a silly argument to pick an HR value and say above this my metabolism is anaerobic and below is aerobic. This is the entire point I keep trying to make here.
-
@Brad_Olwin said in ZoneSense:
By this logic, all LT1 measurements are wrong, whether done in a lab or by ZS. The estimate of LT1 by ZS is not “wrong” it is simply an estimate that you can use should you choose to do so. Same for a lab test LT1 “estimate”! What conclusions are you making that are wrong?
I wonder if I don’t get your point or you don’t get mine.
I’m talking about exactly one specific run where ZoneSense estimated a LT1 below the LT1 I set for my HR zones. You say that this estimation is specific for that run, aren’t you? And this estimated LT1 is the divider between green and yellow isn’t it?
If all that is true, so why can it be that I have more green and less yellow than by looking at the same data using my set HR zones? That is the simple question I’m trying to figure out. -
@Brad_Olwin said in ZoneSense:
By this logic, all LT1 measurements are wrong, whether done in a lab or by ZS. The estimate of LT1 by ZS is not “wrong” it is simply an estimate that you can use should you choose to do so. Same for a lab test LT1 “estimate”! What conclusions are you making that are wrong?
I wonder if I don’t get your point or you don’t get mine.
I’m talking about exactly one specific run where ZoneSense estimated a LT1 below the LT1 I set for my HR zones. You say that this estimation is specific for that run, aren’t you? And this estimated LT1 is the divider between green and yellow isn’t it?
If all that is true, so why can it be that I have more green and less yellow than by looking at the same data using my set HR zones? That is the simple question I’m trying to figure out.OK the number is calculated in the app and I am unsure of how reliable that number is. I have been testing two different watches receiving from the same belt and the numbers for LTI are different or one watch provides an LTI and the other does not. So, I would trust the number less than the percentages you get from ZS. Sorry for the confusion.
-
Hi @Brad_Olwin, thanks for sharing your knowledge! Since few months I am monitoring ZoneSense results and comparing it to my feelings and to HR values. So far, everything matches, if I run slow and easy. Once I start to speed up, ZoneSense doesn’t catch up. At least it looks like, but maybe you can help me to make sense Out of the data in the snapshot. It shows results of Cooper test: estimated Anaerobic threshold is at 171. After first 10th minutes I ran with 90-95% of effort, but ZS went into red zone just once and very briefly. From feelings perspective, I could have ran a bit faster (but not much), but a bottleneck were my muscles…
Could it be, that for a proper/better ZS “calibration” during first 10minutes of run, one has to speed up to through all HR zones?
-
Strange readings on last bike ride! Zonesense baseline. It is this something new? I certainly can’t remember seeing it before.
Suunto Vertical
Suunto 9 BARO
Garmin Fenix 3, 5
Suunto Vector -
@Audaxjoe also got that yesterday on bike:
-
Strange readings on last bike ride! Zonesense baseline. It is this something new? I certainly can’t remember seeing it before.
Already mentioned in https://forum.suunto.com/post/169982
It’s unintended and will be fixed in next app release.
