How does Suunto App decide, what kind of training (aerobic, anaerobic, etc.) is it?

[Mazel]

Hi,
I was watching my Overview in Traning zone tab and noticed all of my trainings were aerobic, anaerobic or combination. I have Suunto 9 Baro for a few years and I wanted to focus on my VO2max and incorporated more intervals, all kinds. 10 x 200 m, hard uphill efforts, 6 x 3:30 fast pace + 1:30 recovery jog. Anything I could come up with, but at the end nothing was classified as VO2max training. Not even “hard anaerobic” when I often hit like 95 % of my HRmax. Is there any sheet which covers how the app handles and classifies workouts? The last thing which comes to my mind is long threshold runs but last time I went harder, it was aerobic/anaerobic again.

Thanks!

[Brad_Olwin]

@Mazel The Z4/Z5 HR value should be your anaerobic (lactate) threshold. If you have this set wrong it will affect what SA thinks your VO2 Max is.

[Mazel]

@Brad_Olwin The point is elsewhere - Suunto App marks my runs and workouts - long easy run is “aerobic”, “long aerobic” or “heavy aerobic”, it seems it depends on the length of the run. And everything with a slightly higher HR is aerobic/anaerobic or just anaerobic. When I go to gym and manually put there “weight lifting”, it automatically marks it as “strength”. But it seems there should be also “heavy anaerobic” and “VO2max” training as well, at least according to the Training Zone -> Overview. I wanted to focus on my VO2max but can’t get the App to evaluate the workout as a VO2max. Moreover it decreases my VO2max with my interval trainings (but I suppose that’s just my value becoming more accurate).

https://maps.suunto.com/move/manmazel/65db1201a097661d336e52f2 (long aerobic)
https://maps.suunto.com/move/manmazel/65d617dc8a79c728d1a25af2 (aerobic)
https://maps.suunto.com/move/manmazel/65872d903023be56e5837c87 (heavy aerobic)
https://maps.suunto.com/move/manmazel/65845767b31a9876b4db45c6 (anaerobic - hard 1 km intervals + 500 m rest)
https://maps.suunto.com/move/manmazel/65d8a5dce682292be3f89c04 (aerobic/anaerobic - hard uphill intervals, roughly 1:30 to 2:30)
https://maps.suunto.com/move/manmazel/65dd98d3b994cf060f4d3bb9 (aerobic/anaerobic - 10 x (200 m fast + 300 m slow run/walk)

Now I am trying to find out, which workout would improve the VO2max and whether Suunto App can distinguish it and label it or whether it always will be just aerobic or anaerobic.

[TrailEyes]

Looking over my runs so far this month, SA gave me the VO2Max tag whenever I did a significant step up.from “normal.” I was injured most of Januaray, but my first long-ish trail run (9 miles) since coming back from that injury got a VO2Max tag, even though it was mostly Zone 2. More recently, when I’ve done either sub 8-min pace road runs for 5-6 miles or done 8:30-pace runs despite feeling ike crap, my HR was more likely to be Zone 4 or 5, and those got VO2Max tags.

I dont have any inside knowledge of SA’s algorithm, I can just anecdotally say that when I did a run that was harder than usual and truly outside my recent training’s comfort zone, the tag popped in.

[GiPFELKiND]

@TrailEyes and @Mazel as far as i know you have to set the end from Zone 4 ITS the beginning from Zone 5 your lactat Treshhold. Zone 5 then is going from your lactat Treshhold to your maximal heart Rate. The suunto watch automatical Set your zones when you say your maximal heart rate. To got your lactat Treshhold you have to make a ergospirometrie by a doctor. Or you make a Treshhold Test in a Run. Run 40minutes all in then the avg Heart Rate in Suunto App ist your lactat Treshhold. This value you have to Set as beginning Zone 5. The other zones i set not in case of my maximal heart rate, but as % from my lactat Treshhold.
https://www.suunto.com/de-de/sports/News-Articles-container-page/Figure-out-your-training-zones-and-supercharge-your-fitness/

[Mazel]

@TrailEyes Ok, so I assume it means it should be something like a threshold run - keep the fast pace and high HR, but just at the edge so I can sustain it for let say 20 or 30 minutes. I will test it tomorrow.
@GiPFELKiND That’s a really good point. I have set only my max HR and wasn’t aware the zones are supposed to be based on the lactate threshold HR. But this just means the measurements/tags by Suunto are not accurate… which means I should probably get this threshold tested so the data brings some value.

[Sebastian Wagner 0]

i did the anaerobic threshold test from suunto+ and used the zones that @GiPFELKiND posted.
the suunto + app for the anaerobic threshold test could be a bit more user friendly, about that i wrote under the suunto+ app topics.
when you use the suunto+ app and start a run the test starts with 10 min warm-up and that it is 30 min Tempo, the average hr from minute 10-30 is your anaerobic threshold hr. with that i got better auto tags in the suunto app.

[Brad_Olwin]

@Mazel my reply to you was exactly what @GiPFELKiND stated. Zone 4/5 needs to be set at your lactate threshold. That was the first comment. If the zones are incorrect the workout tags will be incorrect. Zone 2/3 should be set as your aerobic threshold. You can de determine this using the decoupling S+ app.

[Mazel]

@Sebastian-Wagner-0 That seems pretty straightforward, I’m gonna do that test. The workout I did today was pretty similar so with some uncertainty I can say my zones are set pretty well. Definitely not exactly but “kinda”.
[EDIT] I’ve checked my data from the last year - during race (~75 minutes) I had mean HR 181. So it seems the estimate 183, which I am using now is pretty close.
@Brad_Olwin I’m sorry, but I’m a bit confused. I have an IT background so I am wondering how could be tags incorrect (technically) when the zones are incorrect? The input from user (me) is the zones - I put there the numbers, which HR interval is which zone. The only thing what the App can do is to analyze workout - times spent in different zones, gaps between efforts, etc. and based on that, determine which type of workout (tag) it is. The app itself can’t have any idea what is my “right” lactate threshold unless I put it in there.
I really don’t want to discredit the importance of right lactate threshold, just want to point out, it should not matter (for the app, for me it absolutely matters). But from my point of view - I set my zones, app determines how is each workout tagged based upon zones I set up. If I set them wrong, for example my Z4 is too low, I will have many more workouts tagged as “anaerobic” even when in reality it’s “aerobic”. But that’s imho it. When workout satisfies conditions for “VO2max” tag, it should be tagged “VO2max”.

[Mazel]

Workout for this day - warmup - 2 x (20’ around 86 - 91 % HRmax + 5’ rest) - cooldown
Tagged “anaerobic”.
https://maps.suunto.com/move/manmazel/65e038b69b3d7f0b504106f2

[GiPFELKiND]

@Mazel Looks good did you change the Heart Rate values like i wrote? Looks good one the first look

[Sebastian Wagner 0]

after todays run, i am not sure if only heart rate counts. the following activity is tagged as aerob/anaerob
hr is only zone 1 & 2
tempo zone 1,2,3 (i think are not so accurate, have to find a way to get accurate numbers) and power all zones (i have to make some critical power test runs, or other runs to get accurate power values. will use some steve palladino calculator https://superpowercalculator.com/calculators/6

besides the tempo graph is not accurate regarding colors.

[Brad_Olwin]

@Mazel Zones in the watch are critical. The app will use these and if you set Lactate Threshold too high zone 4/5 then the app won’t record an exercise above that as VO2M. You should set pace and power zones as well.

[Mazel]

@Mazel Not at all, I kept it at default settings and updated just my HRmax. I remember my max when I was around 20 was 210 during a halfmarathon (with HR belt) and in summer I can hit HR just bellow 200 during shorter runs so I suppose I am still around 200 HRmax. And Suunto gave me the zones based on that. And I think it works, at least now for me. I have already asked lab in our town whether they do lactate threshold tests for runners and not only for cyclists to get an exact value.
@Brad_Olwin Wait a sec, lactate threshold is the edge of zone 4 and zone 5, right? So when I run in zone 4, I should still be under the threshold and therefore not in purely anaerobic zone. Do you have an insight, how is it implemented in the Suunto App? Like “if mean HR is in zone 4 and values are consistent - then it’s VO2max”, “if mean HR is in zone 4 and values are fluctuating - then it’s interval training and it’s anaerobic/aerobic”. This would help me to understand the behaviour.

[Brad_Olwin]

@Mazel The zone4/5 number should be your LT, just setting the max is not very accurate. It also helps to set your aerobic threshold at Z 2/3. So yes, if you are in Z4 you are below LT and mostly aerobic but when close to LT may have anaerobic as well. To get VO2M you need to be above LT and I do not know how that is calculated. The app may use pace and power information as well. Those zones should be set and can be inferred from either LT and AT tests or from races you have done.

[FunkyLarma]

@Brad_Olwin this is exactly what was mentioned in my Intensity Zones post, sorry for the double post.

So to get a good TSS calculation you need to pin the threshold in that Zone 4/5 intersection, so that would be Lactate Threshold, FTP, LT2 or similar. Then to get a good zone representation you anchor the aerobic threshold or LT1 at Zone 2/3.

I have put a quick spreadsheet together using the percentages from @GiPFELKiND post and will test it to see how it goes. Only issue I currently have is trying to do with for the threshold paces

[Mazel]

@FunkyLarma So VO2max tag is based on the TSS value? I mean the tag, not value.
@Brad_Olwin Thanks for the insight, I will try to get some proper LT value and set up my pace zones as well. We will see whether there would be a difference.

[FunkyLarma]

@Mazel said in How does Suunto App decide, what kind of training (aerobic, anaerobic, etc.) is it?:

@FunkyLarma So VO2max tag is based on the TSS value? I mean the tag, not value.
@Brad_Olwin Thanks for the insight, I will try to get some proper LT value and set up my pace zones as well. We will see whether there would be a difference.

I would really hope not, in fact if it is then someone needs a wrist slap.
To be honest I have no idea on the tags assignment, I’m guessing that it is a time and intensity calculation but for it to be right then you need to have accurate zones set in your watch. For example on my first run I did not, and it had me in Zone 5 for 20 minutes; that was tagged as a VO2Max workout. In reality it was an easy run and I was sitting well within an endurance intensity.

TSS, or Training Stress Score, is a measure of load and uses a rather complicated calculation to get to a number. Feel three to look it up but the short answer is it uses a known number, be that watts in power, bpm in heart rate or pace in speed as your ‘threshold’ Then it works out how long you spent above and below that threshold to give you how much load you put on your body. Although it is important to remember that not all TSS is created equal. You could do a very long and easy run/ride and get the same TSS score as a much shorter and intense workout. So you kind of use TSS as a guide but then breakdown the time in zones to see which energy systems have been effected by the workout.

So all that said, TSS is separate from intensity zones as a form of measure. However there is no way to set the threshold for TSS directly in the Suuntu platform, but it does occur around the Zone 4 / Zone 5 cross over. If you are only ever using just the Suunto app then set your zones as above and enjoy. If you want to use the Training Peaks metrics then it appears to require a bit more thought, but still enjoy. Always enjoy!

[Maryn]

If the app shows TSS (.p), does it mean that kind of training is a result of 4/5 threshold power setting?

[wmichi]

I am also struggling a little bit with this VO2max tag. I did a short cross country skiing race (45min) recently, where my HR was most of the time around my anaerobic threshold. SA tagged this race with VO2MAX, which is correct, in my opinion. If I do VO2MAX intervals in my training (again cross country skiing), SA never tags those trainings with VO2MAX, but instead always aerobic/long aerobic. I think the reason for this is the warmup and cooldown. I always do about 30min warmup, very easy in HR zone 1, with a little bit zone 2 and zone 3. Then the interval part and afterwards 20min to 30min cooldown, again HR zone 1. So I have about 1 hour in zone 1 (+ the rest parts) and this seems to mess up the tagging. I remember on Garmin those workouts have always been identified correctly (aerobic training effect). I guess, If I would just record the interval part, it would be tagged correctly.

On the other hand: If you do a 2h training session and have something like 40min interval on-time, how should SA interpret the training benefit? Are the 1h 20min easy zone 1 more important than the 40min interval on-time? Currently it seems to be the case. Maybe a possibility to edit those tags would be a good idea (including recalculation of all the Suunto Coach stuff).