Rucking activity and trail running with backpack

[dreamer_]

I’m writing because reading a post of another user, I was remembering my training for the Marathon Des Sables back in 2020.
That time I was doing a lot of trail running during many hours through the mountains and with a backpack up to 9 kilograms. I had a Fenix 6X and I remember how irreal were all recordings because the watch didn’t know anything about all that extra weight.

I also needed to do a lot of lift weighting and heat training in sauna but the most important thing is that the technique while trail running with weight is totally different than without weight. To not get injured I was making smaller steps and reducing the impacts. So in addition of a lot slower paces, it is not only about the extra weight but the way you are running because of that weight, which is totally different than without.
A similar thing happens if you are walking with a backpack

So there are not activities that can take in account all that extra effort while trail running or walking. Because of that experience, I remember asking Garmin a while ago too. But as far as I know, the activity is not added in their watches either.
And I’m here now with a Suunto watch and remembering that when you get into ultra endurance, there are things like this one that the watches still do not know

[isazi]

@dreamer_ can you explain what you want to achieve with this?

[dreamer_]

@isazi sorry. I did not explain it fine. The thing is there’s no activity in the watch for trainings where you run with weight.

There are many multiday races , where you are running hundreds of kilometers with a backpack.
Most know examples are the Marathon Des Sables:
https://www.marathondessables.com/en

A photo from the site that is very descriptive:

The Volcano Ultramarathon series:
https://volcanoultramarathon.com/

Trail running with a backpack up to 9 kilograms, means slow paces with sort steps. You are also running with a different technique of running to not get injured.

These conditions are totally different than normal trail running (or even walking) and my post is that specific workout modes should be made to add the weight you are using while trail running.

I understand that not many people does these kind activities, but this watch is good for ultras and it would be interesting for those that do multiday races with weight. I mean, if we are using the same mode for these activities and normal trail running, you will have very different data inside the same activities and bad metrics at the end because of the mix of different things.

[isazi]

@dreamer_ so you just need a different sport mode to not mix this with running?

[dreamer_]

@isazi yes. That’s the intention of the post. An sport mode that knows the weight of the backpack is missing . It is important when you are training these kind of races.

[dreamer_]

To recap. At least a self-suficiency trail run mode is missing for those specific trainnings with weight . That mode should have the same parameters as a normal trail run (climbs,…) plus the weight added in the backpack to calculate the real efforts and to not have all the activities mixed too.

[Egika]

@dreamer_ said in Rucking activity and trail running with backpack:

To recap. At least a self-suficiency trail run mode is missing for those specific trainnings with weight . That mode should have the same parameters as a normal trail run (climbs,…) plus the weight added in the backpack to calculate the real efforts and to not have all the activities mixed too.

to put this in a bigger perspective:
does that mean we need every sport mode with additional effort? What is different to cycling with head wind?
Or swimming against a current. Or swimming with fins? Or hiking with a backpack.

So actually your use case is trail running with additional effort - is there a way to solve this for all other sports as well?

[dreamer_]

@Egika please tell me examples for the races for the use cases you mention and their specific trainings if they exist

There are many races through the world like I was talking about which you need to train during many months.

Here you have more: https://www.beyondtheultimate.co.uk/
https://www.racingtheplanet.com/

It’s not something I’m inventing, it’s something it’s and has been there during decades and nobody has been able to sort this yet. The trainings of these races is very specific and different as I was explaining through the other posts.

[Egika]

@dreamer_
I think I just provided some examples right in my post:

any cycling training in the outdoors can have rear or head wind which affects your training.
In swimming it is common for every swimmer to use paddles and/or fins which affect your training.
I don’t see the difference to train with a backpack and additional weight.

I am asking to step back three steps when looking at this and look at it from a meta perspective: How could a solution look like that does not end up in doubling all activities for extra or reduced effort compared to the standard sport?

[Matúš]

@Egika, head wind and water current are not always predictable, but if you start a hike or a trail run with 15[kg]+0-5[kg] you already know the handicap that you will have during the activity.

I think that @dreamer_ point is the possibility to take already into account the overweight, thus to obtain at the end of the activity proper performance results; indeed, if I run 42km @ 5’/km, you should agree that running with your own weight or with 15[kg] backpack can be slightly different, thus the overall “meaning” of the performance itself.

[Egika]

@Matúš said in Rucking activity and trail running with backpack:

@Egika, head wind and water current are not always predictable, but if you start a hike or a trail run with 15[kg]+0-5[kg] you already know the handicap that you will have during the activity.

I think that @dreamer_ point is the possibility to take already into account the overweight, thus to obtain at the end of the activity proper performance results; indeed, if I run 42km @ 5’/km, you should agree that running with your own weight or with 15[kg] backpack can be slightly different, thus the overall “meaning” of the performance itself.

I fully agree and am looking for a general solution. See example of swimming with paddles and fins.
If we focus on our own and sole sport mode only we will end up with multiplying the number of sports (which could actually be a solution, but maybe not the best one).

If you are not interested in general ideation on this, that is fine as well.

[Matúš]

@Egika said in Rucking activity and trail running with backpack:

How could a solution look like that does not end up in doubling all activities for extra or reduced effort compared to the standard sport?

By changing every time your mass inside your profile settings?

[Egika]

@Matúš mass plays no role during swimming…

[Matúš]

@Egika, I think that during the Marathon Des Sables you do not have problems with swimming…

[Egika]

maybe the discussion is similar to the Ebike discussion.

Question: If I am training with extra load, the HR should be higher than without. The training load depends on the time spent in different HR zones, right?
So actually the training effect should be reproduced just fine without any extra setting?

[dreamer_]

And these trainnings are not something puntual like a windy day. You need months for this, day after day, running a lot slower, making very different and small steps. Not counting the weight lifting and sauna. This trainning is very specific because the self suficiency races are in fact different and specific.

[Fenr1r]

@Egika said in Rucking activity and trail running with backpack:

I am asking to step back three steps when looking at this and look at it from a meta perspective: How could a solution look like that does not end up in doubling all activities for extra or reduced effort compared to the standard sport?

Adding an option for additional weight to user-created sports modes only? Default value=0.

Or an S+ app?

Behind the scenes, the process would be, effectively, a temporary body weight increase only for the duration of the activity … so the results would need to be integrated back into the general health/coach/whatever so that the Training progress algorithm didn’t freak out.

[Egika]

@Matúš sorry, we are talking on different levels. I tried to take the idea of additional training effects and find a solution that applies to all other trainings with additional effects. At least I tried to make it clear.

And it does not really matter if you have these trainings every day or just 1 day in a month.

If you are not ready to discuss this on a general base and for other sports, then I’ll leave this topic. Sorry for bringing it up.

[Matúš]

@Egika said in Rucking activity and trail running with backpack:

If I am training with extra load, the HR should be higher than without. The training load depends on the time spent in different HR zones, right?
So actually the training effect should be reproduced just fine without any extra setting?

Good point but, absurdly, if you have already reached your max HR (or simply, you are training by means of HR zones), how are you able now to distinguish the presence, or not, of an extra load?

[dreamer_]

@Fenr1r perhaps and S+ application + custom sport mode it’s a good idea.
@Egika you mean something similar as what has been done with the complications of the watch faces, so you can customize the faces or the sports in this case according to some predefined parameters in the S+ app.

It would serve for the purpose I was talking about but in this case I like the idea of having the new workout mode by default because those races are an sport that already exist, that you can train and that you can race and compete. Personally, I think it also seems a good marketing thing for Suunto to say that the watch that has the longest battery duration of the market, has also created specific run modes for those specific ultra races.