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New software update for S9P-S9B-S9-S5P-S5 and S3 devices 2.20.28

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  • Ł Offline
    Łukasz Szmigiel
    last edited by 12 May 2022, 12:49

    The difference in VO2max calculation is noticeable when there is wind vs no wind, when it’s warmer vs colder, or when you’re running on a nice and even surface vs dirt road.

    Therefore, it would be best to let the user decide when to calculate the VO2 according to needs and running profile.

    Assuming that accuracy is important.

    Right now, VO2max calculation is simply too inaccurate when doing multiple activities in changing environment to have it “set it and forget it”.

    But then, it’s just a number. Why bother?

    S9PP 2.40.38

    F 1 Reply Last reply 12 May 2022, 13:54 Reply Quote 2
    • F Offline
      freeheeler @Łukasz Szmigiel
      last edited by 12 May 2022, 13:54

      @łukasz-szmigiel
      VO2max is a value measured in a laboratory as I understand. our VO2max is estimated based on experience but without influence of nature elements.
      for the watch it’s impossible to incorporate that. and for the developers who write the algorithm it is very difficult to find a reasonable balance of influencing factors.
      it’s good to look at the value every now and then but I’ve decided to not take it too serious

      living sideways

      D Ł 2 Replies Last reply 12 May 2022, 15:27 Reply Quote 1
      • D Offline
        Djordje S Bronze Member @freeheeler
        last edited by 12 May 2022, 15:27

        @freeheeler my problem with vo2max is that one walking activity decrease number,so after that I have to run who know how many days in order to return it on some normal value :))))))

        F 1 Reply Last reply 12 May 2022, 16:01 Reply Quote 3
        • F Offline
          freeheeler @Djordje S
          last edited by 12 May 2022, 16:01

          @djordje-s
          I know what you mean… but I don’t have any other idea than trying to understand how it works and trying to read the values in a reasonable way. we can’t change how it works unfortunately… we can only track instead of walking let’s say inline skating and change the sport mode after uploading to SA in order to avoid a messed up VO2max graph over time

          living sideways

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
          • Ł Offline
            Łukasz Szmigiel @freeheeler
            last edited by 12 May 2022, 17:31

            @freeheeler I know it’s an estimation. But what sense does it make if it drops 5 units after a simple trekking workout while it takes a month of running to get it back to previous estimation.

            That’s why I think it shouldn’t be linked to every running activity but per user’s need instead.

            S9PP 2.40.38

            B 1 Reply Last reply 13 May 2022, 01:46 Reply Quote 4
            • B Offline
              Brad_Olwin Moderator @Łukasz Szmigiel
              last edited by Brad_Olwin 13 May 2022, 01:46

              @łukasz-szmigiel and the rest of you. Why do you care about this number. As @freeheeler said a lab test is necessary to get a VO2Max. And then, what does it mean? If you are trying to get more fit pick a hill or segment for a bike or run. Are you faster or slower? That will tell you if your fitness is increasing or decreasing. Or, do a Cooper test every three or six months. The watch gives you a silly number that doesn’t matter much.

              Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

              Ł ? C D T 5 Replies Last reply 13 May 2022, 06:41 Reply Quote 3
              • Ł Offline
                Łukasz Szmigiel @Brad_Olwin
                last edited by 13 May 2022, 06:41

                @brad_olwin I don’t. I used it last year as a little game of crossing 50 as I’ve always been right under. After I did, I don’t care 😉

                It’s not troubling me, but it seems weird that for a platform that’s about accuracy, this estimation is unreliable. It creates confusion.

                S9PP 2.40.38

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                • ? Offline
                  A Former User @Brad_Olwin
                  last edited by A Former User 13 May 2022, 08:30

                  @brad_olwin I use it for meassuring running efficiency. My VO2max value increased much working on technique. Running better leads to better pace in HR2 Zone and an increase in VO2max. I do not use it much for high intense training.

                  I 1 Reply Last reply 13 May 2022, 08:33 Reply Quote 0
                  • I Offline
                    isazi Moderator @Guest
                    last edited by 13 May 2022, 08:33

                    @mountainchris you do not need VO2max for that, you’re already doing it right.

                    Watch: Suunto Vertical Ti

                    Blog: isazi's home

                    ? 1 Reply Last reply 13 May 2022, 08:57 Reply Quote 1
                    • C Offline
                      cosme.costa @Brad_Olwin
                      last edited by 13 May 2022, 08:37

                      @brad_olwin as @łukasz-szmigiel comments I do not care much about the number either, but I also believe that if the number is not reasonable shouldn’t be presented, at least not in the watch. If I want hundreds of non-useful metrics I can always go to other brands. I think that before the upgrade the value was reasonable accurate but right now is too sensitive and “someone” should do some fine tunning.

                      In my case and with running the value in the watch is quite close to my lab results, only some points lower but new algo does what it wants and goes down to easily when ascent is involved, not proportional, I think it should consider NGP.

                      The other day I did my first Cooper test, I already knew about it but never did one, in my opinion it can be useful for checking evolution but for the value that the formula gives we are in a worse situation than with the watch because Cooper test only uses distance and age whilst the watch also uses HR (and probably more metrics).

                      I Ł 2 Replies Last reply 13 May 2022, 08:45 Reply Quote 4
                      • I Offline
                        isazi Moderator @cosme.costa
                        last edited by 13 May 2022, 08:45

                        @cosme-costa for me Suunto gives the same results as the Cooper test I did last week. But maybe all this VO2max discussion is not really for this topic.

                        Watch: Suunto Vertical Ti

                        Blog: isazi's home

                        C 1 Reply Last reply 13 May 2022, 09:33 Reply Quote 2
                        • ? Offline
                          A Former User @isazi
                          last edited by A Former User 13 May 2022, 08:57

                          @isazi thanks. did not know that. but HR gets lower with age. is it really correct to calculate factor without this? But I think only HRmax is getting lower. Interesting view… Will check my EF…

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                          • C Offline
                            cosme.costa @isazi
                            last edited by cosme.costa 13 May 2022, 09:33

                            @isazi Yeah in my case, Cooper test VO2max is 5/6 points bigger than watch value but before the test I more or less knew the result because I know pretty well my pace for 12 minutes in a flat surface. I think the algo for running (flattish run) is ok and accurate with the watch, my “complain” is when ascent is involved and the big drop that happens there if you aren’t Kilian Jornet.

                            As an example, today I run 15 km of trail running with what I consider nice pace (route has some technical parts), 429 m of ascent and relatively low HR, VO2max hasn’t changed from last activity but I’m pretty sure that if I would have run in the flat with today’s NGP my VO2max would have increased provably one point.

                            And yes, maybe this discussion, should be in a separate topic…

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                            • Ł Offline
                              Łukasz Szmigiel @cosme.costa
                              last edited by 13 May 2022, 12:27

                              @cosme-costa this is exactly my point as well. Why have a number in a watch that occupies space (memory), has a dedicated screen and provides confusion to new users if it’s unreliable to the point that it’s being suggested to ignore it?

                              S9PP 2.40.38

                              I 1 Reply Last reply 13 May 2022, 13:25 Reply Quote 3
                              • D Offline
                                DMytro @Brad_Olwin
                                last edited by 13 May 2022, 13:21

                                @brad_olwin my point isn’t as strong as for other.
                                I just find it very irritating, you know, like a fly buzzing around, to have a value that is not representative of my true fitness, which I can’t hide/turn off.
                                Same goes for the inaccurate step count for which I couldn’t care less except it irritates me to know of inaccuracy.
                                Arguably, it’s my problem not suunto’s.

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                • I Offline
                                  isazi Moderator @Łukasz Szmigiel
                                  last edited by 13 May 2022, 13:25

                                  @łukasz-szmigiel well, Suunto did not have it originally on the S9, and reviewers were enraged because A SERIOUS WATCH NEEDS VO2MAX! So they added it, and paid Firstbeat (Garmin) to have it. The fact that they have it now means they are still paying Firstbeat for the license.

                                  Watch: Suunto Vertical Ti

                                  Blog: isazi's home

                                  D Ł T 3 Replies Last reply 13 May 2022, 13:42 Reply Quote 2
                                  • D Offline
                                    DMytro @isazi
                                    last edited by 13 May 2022, 13:42

                                    @isazi but why make it available for things other than running on flat terrain?
                                    I definitely think that having an option to use vO2max rather than having it always on would be a much appreciated compromise.

                                    I 1 Reply Last reply 13 May 2022, 13:59 Reply Quote 2
                                    • I Offline
                                      isazi Moderator @DMytro
                                      last edited by 13 May 2022, 13:59

                                      @dmytro said in New software update for S9P-S9B-S9-S5P-S5 and S3 devices 2.20.28:

                                      @isazi but why make it available for things other than running on flat terrain?

                                      I believe it is because the market expects it, and other vendors also have it (some have the exact same Firstbeat algorithm).

                                      Watch: Suunto Vertical Ti

                                      Blog: isazi's home

                                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                      • Ł Offline
                                        Łukasz Szmigiel @isazi
                                        last edited by 13 May 2022, 14:03

                                        @isazi yeah I remember that certain fitness-related functions were added with firmware after S5 release because it was unimaginable that hi-end watch didn’t have something that mid-end watch has. It’s silly, but then, well the market has spoken 😉

                                        But really it looks like a simple solution to have both parties happy - leave it on by default and make it a user preference to switch off.

                                        S9PP 2.40.38

                                        I 1 Reply Last reply 13 May 2022, 14:04 Reply Quote 1
                                        • I Offline
                                          isazi Moderator @Łukasz Szmigiel
                                          last edited by 13 May 2022, 14:04

                                          @łukasz-szmigiel let’s make this a watch feature request.

                                          Watch: Suunto Vertical Ti

                                          Blog: isazi's home

                                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
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