New software update for S9P-S9B-S9-S5P-S5 and S3 devices 2.20.28

TyreseJ4

@brad_olwin For the most part I think your post are EXTREMELY helpful. Other times (especially when there’s honest critique of Suunto), you can be unfair. If I buy a device that cost $499, and it says it has a “feature” that I’m interested in, am I not being fair to expect it to work and make a little bit of sense? One of the first things I noticed with Garmin is that the features work. NOT perfectly, but they work. That’s all I ask is that it does something close to what was advertised. If a company can’t do that I’m ok with that. However the device should be significantly cheaper.

freeheeler

@tyresej4
now it is not clear if Garmin is closer to reality than Suunto?
Only because we see a value dropping and we’re disappointed, doesn’t mean, Suunto is doing it wrong, right?

TyreseJ4

@freeheeler That’s true, but which device makes LESS sense? I think that’s the issue. Since I’m no expert on Vo2 max, I’d concede and say that both Garmin and Suunto could be wrong. However since I know one easy run doesn’t effect Vo2 max, I can say with certainty that Suunto is wrong. See what I’m saying? By the way I’m not complaining or anything, just adding my two cent to this particular topic. Suunto certainly has its strengths where other brands/devices fall short.

freeheeler

@tyresej4
I know people that are most certainly much fitter than I am and their VO2max value doesn’t even come close to mine. They do different sports than I do. Sports that we’ve seen result in a lower general VO2max.
I don’t know how VO2max works either, but I can only assume that it is a combination of certain activities with suppression of “noise” between activities. If you don’t reach your max HR, VO2max could be estimated for this specific activity only and hence drop? Just a wild guess…

What I wonder: why are you so confident to say that Suunto is wrong? I would like to understand by an example.

TyreseJ4

@freeheeler Great points! To answer your question, an example would be a run I did just the other day when I wore my Suunto 9 on my right arm to test GPS pace without STRYD against the 945. My Suunto 9 has always been really good in that regard…in fact it’s outstanding when it comes to reliably (connection, pace, distance, etc.). When I started the run my Vo2 max (according to the watch) was 52. When I finished it dropped down to 49.6??? again I know the numbers aren’t a real representation of what your Vo2 max probably is, but it appears the watch punishes you for easy runs or runs that aren’t intervals or tempo pace. Perhaps someone could explain to me how it works because my numbers on Garmin don’t budge unless I stop running for weeks at a time. In fact my numbers on Garmin go up with easy runs where my HR is clearly lower than the last time I did a similar easy run. It seems to consider small improvements in fitness based on effort, which makes a bit more sense to me…of course assuming that’s how it works. The problem could be I simply don’t understand how the Suunto 9 calculates Vo2.

freeheeler

@tyresej4
I know what you mean. I can tell that my VO2max actually got a bit higher when I started running slower with lower HR.
We’ll never know what’s exactly behind the algorithms since it is companies secrets.
Did you do “normal” running or trail running?

TyreseJ4

@freeheeler Mostly road, track, and treadmill. The new Suunto Guides feature is awesome on the road and treadmill!

freeheeler

@tyresej4
I think I’ll do a cooper test some day and compare this result with what the watch gives me. of course it like a laboratory test on the track. heat, humidity etc aren’t counted it.
in “real” life, ascents and descents are difficult to count in and that’s where I see the challenge.
https://www.verywellfit.com/fitness-test-for-endurance-12-minute-run-3120264

TyreseJ4

@freeheeler I think Running with Marc did a YouTube video on that test. I’ve always wanted to try it but never got around to it. Lol with all this discussion and interest in Vo2 max, now might be a time to try it.

freeheeler

@tyresej4
maybe I will, maybe even this week, despite hay fever that will set me back.

DMytro

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos if suunto figures out, how to predict vO2max from walks and/or hikes with a high elevation gain but in an easy terrain, I think it will be first on the market to do so.
Even polar fails to achieve that with their dedicated walking test.

Brad_Olwin

@tyresej4 said in New software update for S9P-S9B-S9-S5P-S5 and S3 devices 2.20.28:

@brad_olwin For the most part I think your post are EXTREMELY helpful. Other times (especially when there’s honest critique of Suunto), you can be unfair. If I buy a device that cost $499, and it says it has a “feature” that I’m interested in, am I not being fair to expect it to work and make a little bit of sense? One of the first things I noticed with Garmin is that the features work. NOT perfectly, but they work. That’s all I ask is that it does something close to what was advertised. If a company can’t do that I’m ok with that. However the device should be significantly cheaper.

I have a Garmin, and if you like I can go over my likes and dislikes compared to Suunto, PM me if you want to. But, in terms of VO2Max I see the same behavior from Suunto and Garmin. For a marathon runner or shorter distances I think the feature works pretty well. For trail running I simply ignore it.

isazi

@tyresej4 I know what you mean, but I cannot really comment on that. Both Garmin and Suunto work for me, giving me the same VO2max, same number I get with a Cooper test. I do not care about the number and would not pay more to have it, but I agree with you that it should work.

suzzlo

Hi all,

Yesterday I saw that Ray was presenting “an improved sleep algorithm” for Garmin devices and also, he is mentioning in the video that some time ago (1 year?), they have deliver a new Body Battery algorithm.

My question is? does someone know if this changes are from FirstBeat algos, and if they are going to be also included in Suuntos releases?

I’m just curious

DMytro

@suzzlo body battery did receive new algo from firstbeat on Garmin, if it’s on suunto - good question.

As for sleep algo - I think it’s also from firstbeat on Garmin, but it’s in-house on suunto - so I wouldn’t expect an iterative update in this department - maybe suunto will provide additional metrics eventually, if hardware allows that is.

dulko79

@suzzlo maybe it is hr sensor related, like effect of sampling rate. Plus licensing could be expensive.

Brad_Olwin

@suzzlo said in New software update for S9P-S9B-S9-S5P-S5 and S3 devices 2.20.28:

Hi all,

Yesterday I saw that Ray was presenting “an improved sleep algorithm” for Garmin devices and also, he is mentioning in the video that some time ago (1 year?), they have deliver a new Body Battery algorithm.

My question is? does someone know if this changes are from FirstBeat algos, and if they are going to be also included in Suuntos releases?

I’m just curious

I’ve been comparing Garmin and Suunto on these. For me, the sleep is as good or better on Suunto. The Garmin does not always agree with how I feel. I am not sure the sleep as all that helpful on Garmin. Too much information for me.
The Body Battery seems to work better for me than Resources as the latter seems to have a slower recovery. However, they are typically in reasonable agreement.

ChrisA

@brad_olwin agree on sleep! For me Garmin’s sleep tracking does not work well and pretty much contradicts its own body battery readings (e.g. I can have 99 or 100 % Body battery on wake-up and feel I had a good night s sleep and Garmin gives me a 58 Sleep score). For me that’s mostly because Garmin misses my deep sleep. But as I have realised here through you and others is, that I rely more on how I feel (both sleeping/relaxing and working out) and only second in what any sportswatch tells me

suzzlo

@brad_olwin I see also Resources quite slow compared to Garmin…but which is right? No idea

I’m curious to know if the Suunto updates include also first beat updates (like they are doing with Sony GPS)

BR

Brad_Olwin

@suzzlo I do not know how the Firstbeat works with updates. Garmin has updated theirs with Stamina, which has not worked well for me. In the races I have done so far I can go several hours with 0% stamina.
For me Recovery Time is worse than Resources, I feel Resources are not that far off and if I switch between Suunto and Garmin as I said they are not that far off.
Probably depends on how the license is provided.