aerobic decoupling
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EDIT: Btw, I don’t understand the reasoning for wanting to exclude coasting/zero power from the calculations.
Because your heart continues to beat even when you stop power output. So HR data is no longer “coupled” or relevant to a calculation. If you include it by doing 0 watt power output and your heart still beating, you are invalidating coupling calculation.
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@lexterm77 hmm, I’m still not sure I get why 0W needs a special handling compared to say 1W.
The decoupling equation uses normalized power (NP) calculated from the entire activity. NP effectively de-weights periods with low power output such as 0 W. That is why I think that 0 W values (or other relativity low power values) do not need to be excluded from the metric as NP gracefully handles periods with lower power. That is why NP was invented in the first place.
But maybe the thinking/assumption is that you pedal at either approx. constant power or that you are coasting at 0W and that is why it is being proposed to do special handling of exactly 0W.
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Normalized power is for calculating your overall effort. Not useful in testing of aerobic threshold. If you go to a lab, they will tell you never, i mean not even for a second to stop pedaling. This is why aerobic threshold tests are not really valid if you do 30min effort then pause 2 minutes then resume. Your anaerobic or oxygen debt or epoc will be refilled and whole teat goes into trash bin. Just go to any lab and ask. They will tell you you need nearly constant effort for 60min to get a valid test.
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@Mads-Hintz-Madsen Thank you for testing!
Aerobic decoupling app doesn’t use normalized power, it currently uses 5 minute rolling average of power and HR values for calculating decoupling value (for cycling). This is also the value shown in Suunto app graph.
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@Raimo-Järvi Thanks for clarifying!
How is the final decoupling value (listed in the summary) calculated? Is that calculation using the average power and average heartrate over the entire activity (excluding warmup/baseline periods)?
In the Suunto App graph, there is an average decoupling value which is different from the final decoupling value. I assume that this average then is the average of the rolling 5-minute decoupling values.
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@Mads-Hintz-Madsen “Final decoupling” is value from last 5 minutes. I guess the name is not very descriptive, app description in SuuntoPlus store should also be updated.
Suunto app graph calculates average of all values during the workout, in this case the values are decoupling values from rolling 5 min average. And since the graph includes 10 min warmup and 10 min baseline calculation, those zero values are included in the average. I guess first 20 minutes should not be included in data, or in calculating the average
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@Raimo-Järvi said in aerobic decoupling:
And since the graph includes 10 min warmup and 10 min baseline calculation, those zero values are included in the average. I guess first 20 minutes should not be included in data, or in calculating the average
I agree.
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I have been using S+ aerobic decoupling for my running and walking activities and everything works as expected…
however, it seems that for the nordic walking and treadmill activities it does not work, i.e. if you activate it, start the activity, as soon as you select the aerobic decoupling page the watch displays a warning:power not available, pair power sensor for measurements.
I know that power is used when it is available, but otherwise pace is used, so if I am not missing something it should work.
or not?
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@robis Power or pace is used according to activity type. Power is used for example for cycling, but it should not be used for nordic walking. We will fix it, thank you for reporting it.
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@Brad_Olwin Can you please explain this a little more?
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@wakarimasen If I am maintaining aerobic metabolism below my aerobic threshold the S+ app will show good or a green number. If I an going too hard it will show red in real time.
Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing
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Thanks @Brad_Olwin - that’s clear. Does this depend on the heart rate established during the reference period? I tried this app during a walk earlier in the week and saw negative and positive percentage values following the baseline being established.
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@Brad_Olwin said in aerobic decoupling:
@wakarimasen If I am maintaining aerobic metabolism below my aerobic threshold the S+ app will show good or a green number. If I an going too hard it will show red in real time.
Assuming that entire run (including base evaluation time) has a constant grade. Else, not really because math and stuff.
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I can’t get this S+ app to work properly on my S9B. I tried it when it was first introduced and then didn’t use it for long. Now I’m experiencing all kinds of issues with it. First I wasn’t able to activate it on the watch (when I tried to select it, the selection reverted to ‘none’). Then after a soft reset I could activate it, but had a crash during the run. Tried to reinstall the S+ app, then also the suunto app on my phone, but still have issues. Now I can select it, but the S+ screen is blank (while other S+ apps’ screen isn’t). Anyone else having issues?
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I recently ran into this problem. Sometimes the GPS behaves strangely for known or unknown reasons (probably because I was under a 380kV power line…), and as shown in the image, where the speed suddenly went from ~7 to ~23 km/h (and then later from 7 to 14km/h) for several seconds, the decoupling recording was compromised. Can anything be done to filter out these spikes in the S+ app?
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Using a S9B I cannot get S+ AD app to work for Treadmill activities. It works well for Run activities though: live Good/High green/red labels and % change on the watch after warm-up and baseline evaluation, and reasonable max/final 5-min rolling avg values and charts in SA.
For Treadmill activities I can select the AD app and start recording, warm-up and baseline show the countdown in the dedicated screen on the watch as usual, but from 20’ on I get a fixed screen with the High red label and dashes for % change. SA gets the laps (10’, 10’, and the rest), but there’s no record of decoupling at all. @Raimo-Järvi, could you report or look into this?
It’d be great–for the incline/speed (constant external) established during warm-up and settled as baseline for the activity–to see whether or not and when my HR (internal) decouples. Despite pace being off-the-mark on a treadmill, especially at an incline, the internal to constant external ratio can be a great indicator, and a treadmill provides repeatability for progress assessment.
I’d appreciate your comments, @Brad_Olwin.
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@JVallS Unfortunately I don’t work for Suunto any more, so I can’t do anything to fix this. I guess Aerobic decoupling app requires a power sensor for Treadmill activities, were you using one?
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@Raimo-Järvi Thanks for writing back.
Not using a Power meter at all and S+ AD never prompted me for one. Using a decent OHR armband (Scosche Rhythm+2.0) though. A chest strap is too much of a bother.I understood that aerobic decoupling works on Pace (and HR) ratios in running sports and Power (and HR) in cycling. The issue was addressed above (Q 29 Jan 2024: https://forum.suunto.com/post/137994; your response 30 Jan 2024: https://forum.suunto.com/post/138079).
Again, thanks for writing back.
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@JVallS I’m sorry, I should have read my own responses
I think Aerobic decoupling app was fixed for nordic walking so that it uses pace. But treadmill still uses power: if I activate it in Suunto Vertical for a treadmill activity, it says “Power not available…”.I’m not sure why treadmill wasn’t changed like nordic walking, or if it was intentional. Since I didn’t reply anything about treadmill, maybe I just missed it and it was accidentally left to use power
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@Raimo-Järvi Who do you think I should reach out to about this then? It’d be great to have it sorted out!
