What is the problem with Vo2max est on SV?

Frederick Rochette

For several years now, I’ve been running regularly on a reference course in order to analyze my progress and state of fitness. This allows me to state that there seems to be a problem with the Vo2Max estimation with the Suunto Vertical. The data seemed much more reliable with my old 9 Peak… What do you think? Do you have an explanation?

03 septembre / 11,54km / Asc 196m / 1 :07’17 / Av HR 137 / Vo2max 51,7
24 septembre / 11,56km / Asc 211m / 1 :06’03 / Av HR 136 / Vo2max 51,7
1 oct / 11,52km / Asc 198m / 1 :05’34 / Av HR 135 / Vo2max 51,7 / RunningEconimy Avg bpk 757
8 oct / 11,52km / Asc 194m / 1 :03’56 / Av HR 134 / Vo2max 51,9
15 oct / 11,54km / Asc 196m / 1 :01’52 / Av HR 135 / Vo2max 51,9 / RunningEconomy Avg bpk 739
22 oct / 11,51km / Asc 206m / 1 :00’01 / Av HR 135 / Vo2max 51,9 / RunningEconomy Avg bpk 685

For example in 2020 I did the same run and the result was :

15 oct / 11,31km / Asc 181m / 1 :00’26 / Av HR 140 / Vo2max 58,5

Egika

@Frederick-Rochette what exactly are we supposed to look at?
the data of the first six runs in the list seems to be super consistent. There is no year given though.
Then the single data point from 2020 has a different result.
which of the data points do you think is more reliable and why?

Maybe it is good to know that the current VO2max calculation in 9P as well as in Vertical rely on the same algorithm. It yields not just the result of a single run, but also takes into account previous efforts.
It takes your personal settings (HR limits, weight, age etc) and the exercise data to compute VO2max.

To get a single shot result, I strongly recommend to use the Cooper Test S+ app

inkognito

@Frederick-Rochette What about your HR zones, max HR and other settings? Did you set up your values in your SV to match those in the S9P? If not, that would explain the jump between 2020 and the values above…

Frederick Rochette

@inkognito As you can see, I improved my time by 7 minutes over exactly the same course, while remaining below my endurance threshold of 137 bpm. This clearly shows that my fitness level has improved in the space of about 6 weeks. My Vo2Max should reflect this and be higher, shouldn’t it?

Frederick Rochette

@inkognito All are set and the same as previously in my S9P

inkognito

@Frederick-Rochette You’re right, but… From the previous discussions any my own experience, I somehow got the impression that VO2max algorithm from FirstBeat can give quite reasonable estimates when your HR is higher (closer to anaerobic treshold), but it seems to struggle when your HR is low. This might be also your case of staying below your endurance threshold, right? What happens when you do a high-effort 20 minutes run or two?

Anyway, Suunto is now shiftig away from FirstBeat metrics and the algorithm should improve soon…

Frederick Rochette

@inkognito

From Runalyze, there is some logical evolution of my Vo2Max…
That confirme what I said, there is an issue with Suunto about that, no?

Egika

@Frederick-Rochette now I understand. and think the same as you…

Frederick Rochette

@Egika The problem is that it doesn’t work properly, and the data doesn’t correspond to reality. This erroneous data is therefore not useful as it stands. Third-party applications do a better job than Suunto, and this is incomprehensible…
Suunto’s teams are probably aware of this, but nothing changes. I hope the next update will solve this problem in particular.

Egika

@Frederick-Rochette indeed something changes with the next month firmware update.

danklod

Has anyone done lab test? It’s interesting for me to to understand how near or far are the results.

Tieutieu

@danklod I did in July ! My feedback here, subject that was already discussed => https://forum.suunto.com/post/126896
What I learned doing a proper test :

It surely depends on your shape the day you do the test
watch gives its “best” VO2 estimation with running activities, and using a chest strap that gives the best accuracy for HR mesurement
trail running VO2 estimation is always/often under-estimated
you definitly want to avoid VO2 estimation with walking activities. They will ruin your score.

I so use VO2 mesurement as an indicator, more interested with its evolution than the values themselves.

I think we always want “more” : more accuracy, more precision, more truth…but our watches, as good as they are, are not medical devices…that’s certainly why most pro users take time to analyse datas, work with coaches (I meen real human coaches…) on it, complete with physiological mesurements…

So, there is probably no big issues with VO2max on SV, just cases it works well, and cases it’s less pertinent.

That’s just my thoughts.

Frederick Rochette

@Tieutieu
Thank you for your opinion and I’m aware of everything you’re talking about here.
I always use my cardio belt
It seems obvious that the Vo2Max measurement evolves according to the state of fitness because that’s precisely what it’s for.
I’m trying to show that there’s a problem, because my fitness level has greatly improved in 6 weeks and the Vo2Max measurement hasn’t changed.
Another example today, during a threshold session, with a value of 51.9, whereas on Runalyse I have 55…
The values were much more realistic with my S9P.

taziden

@Frederick-Rochette said in What is the problem with Vo2max est on SV?:

@Tieutieu
Another example today, during a threshold session, with a value of 51.9, whereas on Runalyse I have 55…
The values were much more realistic with my S9P.

Not directly related to Vertical but Runalyze gives me a vo2max score 5-10 units below what my S9PP indicates. I always took these as rough estimates that are to be taken with a big grain of salt. Nevertheless, I agree with the fact it should at least mirror the progression you’re feeling/seeing.

Egika

@taziden that’s what I found as well. Runanlyze always has lower VO2max than my watches…

Frederick Rochette

@Egika In my case, the Vo2Max is over 3 points… while that of my SV is low and not changing.

stromdiddily

@Frederick-Rochette said in What is the problem with Vo2max est on SV?:

@Egika In my case, the Vo2Max is over 3 points… while that of my SV is low and not changing.

What are your heart rate zones in Runalyze?

Frederick Rochette

@stromdiddily Max HR is the same as SUUNTO 188ppm

stromdiddily

@Frederick-Rochette and the rest?

Egika

@stromdiddily right - I had not set them in Runalyze. Did it now.Thx!