Race strategy app

[SvenSchroeter]

I know the struggle you are facing though. And Have been trying to improve my own pacing during longer runs. Call it strategic pacing if you want. Returning back to the SuuntoPlus APPS. If you know the route you will take (provided by a race organiser, or manually entered yourself), you could use the “RACE COMPANION” to leave yourself reminders of pace milestones you want to target, set based on distance travelled for example. I wanted to experiment with this myself.
I know it is not automated, but you could plan out every km if you wanted too, mentally taking not of pop up messages for changes in pace you are targeting. Or the RACE PACER above will allow you to apply a BLANKET PACE for the entire event.

[isazi]

@SvenSchroeter yes it does not take the route, it would be possible to use the loaded route to retrieve distance and not use the app, but it does not do that at the moment.

There is also the newly released “Vertical race” app that also shows remaining ascent.

A future app may even go further.

[SvenSchroeter]

@isazi - OOOH thanks for pointing that out!! I will take a look and as a combination of apps i think i will get mighty close to what I am looking for! But now i am wondering if it is better not to know how much elevation there is to takle from a mental perspective

[isazi]

@SvenSchroeter that is a nice question! On longer (for me) races I do not want to know how much distance/ascent still I have to go though in the first part to not get demoralized, while in the second part of the race I like to know because it helps my mind acknowledge that “the end is near”.

[SvenSchroeter]

@isazi - I have little experience in races… still a new scene for me. And i fear my mental resilience Its something to work on, but at the same time knowing you are making posative progress through the use of the tech we have on the wrist is from one perspective reasuring.

[herlas]

@isazi @SvenSchroeter in my opinion, S+ Race Pacer app is targeted at running on roads, it’s a virtual pacer as those we see at the front pack of a marathon .

You just setup in the app what race distance and what time are you going to try to run that distance.

It even lets you define a negative split pacing strategy.

Not saying it can’t be used with trail running and elevation, but to me, it’s clearly geared at road running and specially race day .

[isazi]

@herlas said in Race strategy app:

Not saying it can’t be used with trail running and elevation, but to me, it’s clearly geared at road running and specially race day .

Indeed.

Although I actually used it in my last trail race, it was quite useful also in that scenario to keep track of my target.

[SvenSchroeter]

@herlas - Maybe the wrong place to pose this question. But it is regarding racing (running) in general. Obviously 1/2 Marathon and Marthon distances are specifically defined. But what about changes in elevation for road events such as these. If you sign up for a marathon, in order to call it a marathon is there a limit on the allowed elevation variations throughout a road event. A parameter which obviously does not apply to trail events, and appart from the technical terrain is an abvious distinction between the two persuits.

[SvenSchroeter]

@isazi - just for my curiosity. I assume as a parameter pre race you enter the total elevation gain necessary to arrive at the top so to speak. And if your event has two hills to overcome, the app counts the first hill, and then continues when you start the second hill (as a sum of all elevation gain over the recorded activity).

[isazi]

@SvenSchroeter do you mean the “Vertical race” app? If so, you set the total ascent for the whole race and the app compares it to the actual measured ascent.

[SvenSchroeter]

@isazi - yes sorry. I meant with respect to the APP. as a sum of all vertical movement.

[herlas]

@SvenSchroeter not really, as long as 42.195 is covered, that’s a marathon.

Marathon courses as any other race distance can be either flat, semi flat, semi hilly, hilly, super hilly based on elevation profile.

When talking marathon world records, there are some rules to make it elegible, this is managed by world athletics, course is measured, certified and well known is the overall decrease in elevation between the start and finish shall not exceed 1:1000, i.e. 1m per km (0.1%), (going off topic)

[SvenSchroeter]

@herlas - top answer for a slightly off topic question! Thanks for taking the time, appreciate it!

[FunkyLarma]

I will have to look into these apps. Over the weekend I used a combination of intensity zones and a target distance to try and pace a half marathon. Appeared to work ok but I did have a wide range I was aiming for.

[Brad_Olwin]

@SvenSchroeter said in Race strategy app:

@isazi - just for my curiosity. I assume as a parameter pre race you enter the total elevation gain necessary to arrive at the top so to speak. And if your event has two hills to overcome, the app counts the first hill, and then continues when you start the second hill (as a sum of all elevation gain over the recorded activity).

If you input the route and add aid stations, the entire profile and remaining elevation gain are available. I use this for ultras and it is the most useful tool. The S+ apps I find not that useful as pacing is not possible in long ultras (you never know when you hit a mental low spot) and I am always slower through the night. In addition to the route profile and Aid Station waypoints, I use the time duration in the watch as well. The best S+ app is one that lets me see NGP, an average NGP would be very helpful.

[FunkyLarma]

@Brad_Olwin would you mind detailing your setup and configuration for an ultra?

[far-blue]

I know this isn’t quite what you were asking about and it isn’t a quick fix for your next race but having tried the likes of PacePro and similar I’ve actually found that for me the best approach is to use the Power metric rather than pace. You could use something like a Stryd membership to load in a route and let it calculate a power and estimated finish time (if you use a stryd pod and sync your training so it “knows” you) or you could train on terrain of a similar nature to the race route and learn your power/pace relationship that way.

The entire fundamental point of Power as a metric is that it allows you to manage your effort across the entire race and, in theory, cross the finish line with nothing left in the tank. You naturally speed up and slow down with the undulation of the terrain. And if you are giving 100% then if you don’t hit your finish time you wouldn’t have done so regardless of tactics and at least you didn’t blow up before finishing

If you did want to use pace then there’s nothing stopping you using PacePro through a free Connect account and then setting up a Suunto Guide/structured workout matching the calculated paces.

[SvenSchroeter]

@Brad_Olwin said in Race strategy app:

@SvenSchroeter said in Race strategy app:

@isazi - just for my curiosity. I assume as a parameter pre race you enter the total elevation gain necessary to arrive at the top so to speak. And if your event has two hills to overcome, the app counts the first hill, and then continues when you start the second hill (as a sum of all elevation gain over the recorded activity).

If you input the route and add aid stations, the entire profile and remaining elevation gain are available. I use this for ultras and it is the most useful tool. The S+ apps I find not that useful as pacing is not possible in long ultras (you never know when you hit a mental low spot) and I am always slower through the night. In addition to the route profile and Aid Station waypoints, I use the time duration in the watch as well. The best S+ app is one that lets me see NGP, an average NGP would be very helpful.

I would love a little more input on how you have set this up. I only ask because I try and PRE PLAN a route using the APP before a race (either by entering it myself and saving it to the watch, or downloading it directly as part of the event route). Hence ultimately arriving at a pre planned route, and applying it to a ROUTE at the start of an activity, the watch can be setup to show remaining KM and ELEVATION? Is this part of a customised sports mode you have made for yourself by any chance?

[Brad_Olwin]

@far-blue said in Race strategy app:

I know this isn’t quite what you were asking about and it isn’t a quick fix for your next race but having tried the likes of PacePro and similar I’ve actually found that for me the best approach is to use the Power metric rather than pace. You could use something like a Stryd membership to load in a route and let it calculate a power and estimated finish time (if you use a stryd pod and sync your training so it “knows” you) or you could train on terrain of a similar nature to the race route and learn your power/pace relationship that way.

The entire fundamental point of Power as a metric is that it allows you to manage your effort across the entire race and, in theory, cross the finish line with nothing left in the tank. You naturally speed up and slow down with the undulation of the terrain. And if you are giving 100% then if you don’t hit your finish time you wouldn’t have done so regardless of tactics and at least you didn’t blow up before finishing

If you did want to use pace then there’s nothing stopping you using PacePro through a free Connect account and then setting up a Suunto Guide/structured workout matching the calculated paces.

For me power is not helpful. You have a different CP for power hiking and downhill running! Power cannot account for differences in the surface including rocks, sand, roots etc. Stryd had an entire video on how to use power for an ultra and it was way too complicated. Sorry, I disagree here. For road yes and trail, no. I tried Garmin pacing for races and climb pro. I did not find them helpful.in addition during long ultras, your perception of how you feel and your mental toughness will have a much greater effect on your pace.

[Brad_Olwin]

@FunkyLarma said in Race strategy app:

@Brad_Olwin would you mind detailing your setup and configuration for an ultra?

Sure, will try this evening. Packing and traveling for a short race (50k).@SvenSchroeter