Race S vs Vertical

[kriskus]

I think I know the answer, but I was wondering is there was a chance for a Vertical S coming along…

[LoïcMichel]

@kriskus People on this thread would love the MIP and saphire/Ti on a more compact watch. At leat I would !

But this watch wuold have a battery limitation that would make it seem inferior to the “Big vertical” and perhaps the Race too…
IMHO Suunto will release Race S titanium at UTMB for the buzz an it will celebrate a complete revolution of their 3 Top Watches … in only a year !

Next watch could be a cheap one without baro, only 3 buttons, made in china and even more agressively priced ? That sounds unlikely. The ocean is really a new watch but for a niche audience.
Or they will develop other products arround these nice watch like optical HR, sensors, satelite beacon… following their audio device broadening…
That make sens as we all buy polar’s HR and gamrin in reach or stryd footpod…

The vertical is far from being outdated when it comes to hardware especially if optical HR has been rectified as some review say.
So Suunto should focus on the firmware improvements people ask.

[krakra]

@LoïcMichel wait…did i understood you correctly: vertical is getting new hr sensor - the one from race s?

[isazi]

@krakra Vertical is not getting any new hardware as far as I know.

[krakra]

@isazi ya all clear . I was just reading a comment and was not sure if j understood it correctly. Thank you for clarifying

[kriskus]

@LoïcMichel It wouldn’t harm if they celebrated a complete revolution of their 4 Top Watches in only a year A Vertical S would still have a better battery life than Race S. And Race S doesn’t go much shorter than the big Race. But yes, MIPs are currently in retreat.

[LoïcMichel]

@krakra No it is just me imaginating a “verticalS”
@kriskus Yes that makes sens to me too

After all, having 2 sizes and 2 types of screen is a smart market segmentation because these are 2 independent criteria that change the hardware drastically and suit consumer opposite demands.
Having the smaller cheaper makes sense too.
The rest is complex to grasp…

The marketing challenge here is the “price segmentation”. The fact is that MIP and amoled are said equally costly and Garmin has chosen to priceup the amoled so I do not get the reality behind this big upprice of the vertical. Garmin fusing back epix&fenix will likely bring prices closer and I expect Suunto to do the same so that prices get closer to cost reality.
(BTW garmin has certainly made a crazy benefit margin on epix, that is innovator’s cash)

Then there are materials to make pricetag different and extract more € from consumers.

Titan is more expensive than top hard Steels but the price for a few grams or Titan cannot justify 100 € compared to other Ti products. To me 50€ for Ti is a max as it only gains 7g and no hardness.
Saphire uprice is big and makes sense to many consumer %scratch but the fact is that saphire also has downsides (reflection, glare). Some would pay much more but even garmin addict complain about +100 so 50€ seems a max to my eyes.
To me having the choice of+50€ for Ti and +50 for Saphire independently is best, but or combined in a +100€ Ti+Saphir version is relevant.

Personnally I LOVE the microfiber wrist band but I cough at the 60€ pricetag, why not offering the choice to buy the watch with such band or leather or metalic or other fancy bands for a +25€ to the “standard” price ?

All in all the suunto shop website could become a reference place where we would buy a personnal combination of these choices wich surley help putting more € out of the bank.

The Race was found “competitive” so the Race S version should have been 50€ less and not 100 as it has same functions than the Race… and better HR. I feel bad for small wrist who bought a normal Race !

What would be the relevant price of a speculative “Vertical S” while the S is too low and the vertical too high ? It would be in the middle but it would cut sales and revenues of the beefy&pricy Vertical…

-A compact MIP+Saphir+Ti would be nice watch but what price would you bet ?
-And what look ? a sleek or “crenelized” one ?
-Technically is it even possible ? I have come to believe that MIP cannot have super small pixels so they cannot put 466 in a tiny screen so this watch would have to finally reuce black side margins.

My guess is that suunto will rather follow the money (market shares) and go elsewhere, rather toward a cheap offer to adress “casual” (or just less rich?) active people.
I imagine that: smaller than S, NoBaro, cheaper amoled, 16Go, plastic back, glass, steel bezel, maybe LTE or NFC payment as it suits some audience and would make nice “additions”.

[LoïcMichel]

@LoïcMichel One could also bet on the battery it would have I guess it would be the vertical on with asize factor of about 30/40 from Race case ?

[duffman19]

@LoïcMichel Maybe read over this article - https://www.actionhub.com/outdoors/qa-an-energized-suunto-reconnects-with-its-core/

Dan Suher lays out the basic strategy of the current lineup. It looks like the 9PP will continue to be made available, with a potential further price cut (down to $250 from what was originally $600+!!). The 9PP is, for now, the budget MIP watch. As much as I would like one, there really is no place for a Vertical S in the current lineup with current pricing. My guess is we won’t see a new, smaller-sized MIP watch for a while.

However, I am hopefully that Suunto hasn’t given up on MIP as Suher seems to suggest that the technology will live on in their “performance-focused category.” At least Suunto knows they still have MIP fans.

[kriskus]

@duffman19 S9PP with the maps add-on could in fact be considered a Vertical S. Or a Suunto 9 Peak Pro Plus

[LoïcMichel]

Greta interview found on this forum:
https://www.actionhub.com/outdoors/qa-an-energized-suunto-reconnects-with-its-core/

“Race S is more or less designed to replace it and modernize it. But with the 9 Peak Pro being a MIP display, it may still have a place in the line through the end of the year or even longer. There’s just a matter of whether it can be engineered now with some new supply chain options that we have and can it be sold profitably at a price point that’s in the mid-$200s. If so, then maybe it has a new place to live for at least a little while longer, so that there is another MIP option in the lineup besides just Vertical.”
==> To me it sounds like Suunto will use S9PP to make it an “entry offer” but IMHO it is not so suitable to this market.
==> To me it sounds like another MIP compact watch will come someday but not in a near future

I find it insightfull on Suunto’s trajectory, focussing back on sport audience wether it is perf or adventure minded.
The ocean is another exemple of the good sens it brings but it lacks a “triathlete” watch IMHO

[Kai Liu]

@GiPFELKiND Oh I didn’t notice the display, yeah MIP is way better

[dreamer_]

@Kai-Liu said in Race S vs Vertical:

I got a vertical, but I feel that I am so dumb paying $800+ for vertical for that offline map, now race also have that offline map for just $300+.

What are some good stuff of vertical that race s doesn’t have besides the battery? I want to hear some to make me feel better

I also have the Vertical Ti and I have the same feeling. Probably many people here thinks the same as you. As users, the difference in price is just to important to not think in that.

In my case I want a watch with a big battery life (ultra races) and I prefer MIP display but I’m thinking in the Race S as a second watch even if it’s Amoled. The thing is that for everyday use, it seems better for my small wrist and has better tracking software and even with better HR. For all my trainings and most races, I prefer the small form factor too (but not for the long races, of course).

There are things the Race S has: Better HR sensor, better sleep tracking software with naps and sleep phases, better step counter software and even a new barometer sensor. It is also lighter and more confortable. The screen is gorilla glass, which I do prefer a lot. Cheaper to manufacture than sapphire but better for everyday use in my opinion.

I have had an F6X Pro (5 years) and an F7 Pro, both with sapphire. I returned the F7 for the bad “greyish” screen (that issue does not happen in the Vertical and Race, of course)
I also had a T-Rex 2 (Amoled) with gorilla glass and I liked the screen of that watch more than the Race screen because of the gorilla glass of the T-Rex 2
I have seen some reviews saying that Race S visibility is a bit better than Race’s, despite of the smaller screen and because of the cheaper gorilla glass.
So I prefer gorilla for the everyday better visibility. My wife still has an FR935 I bought on 2017 and the screen is perfect. That screen has better visibility than both Fenix expensive watches I’m talking about.

So 7 years with an FR935 and lot of use with gorilla and no problems of scratches at all.
In my opinion sapphire is more a marketing thing (that Garmin started) and it’s clearly a lot worse for everyday use.

I’d love a Vertical S with MIP, gorilla glass and the same hardware / software fixes the Race S has. That could be a watch that could probably last a 100 miller with dual band enabled and with an screen that is valid for everyday condition. But having a Race S in the market, I don’t think that is going to happen (same watch with just different screen).

So, I’m my opinion. If you are fine with the battery life of the Race S and the 1.31 inch screen with Amoled, buy the Race S. It is a better watch if you don’t care about those things and no so better if you want MIP and you do ultras. That’s were the Vertical excels

(Edited this post a lot to fix a bit my not so good english )

[Tami999]

Vertical (especially solar) is double if not more battery life. When I was sick and recovery after that (with 0 trainings) my SV Solar hold over 30 days of battery. Sapphire is great - not sure if its marketing talking and I dont think so Gamin started that (I know sapphire long time before smartwatches/sportwatches appear). I used normal watch every day and my Casio got scratch after one week, vertical after 0.5 year - 0 scratches. Not sure about this Gorilla glass, but if its same as smartphones - its not good. I hold it in pocket very rarely drop, always care about my gadgets and still got scratches, cant imagine if i hold my smartwatch on wirst, would be so scratched (if thats Gorilla on watch is the same as on phones ofc. If not - im sorry for mistake). I hit so many times my SV on metal and other hard things, and its like brand new. About screen, yeah amoled could be cool, but SV MIP is great, especially outdoor during daylight, never had problem to read.

I can only agree that Race S got new sensor, better sleep tracking etc for the half of SV price. If its more comfortable - idk, i never had a problem with vertical. Got small wirst and its more comfortable for me than Suunto 9 Peak Pro. I dont regret Suunto Vertical. Its much better than Peak 9 Pro that was good but I never felt "its it, iam happy).

[EzioAuditore]

@dreamer_ Sapphire is so not just marketing. I have FR965 with gorilla it already has scratches without major bumps just some door here and there. The Vertical I use in trails has seen some muds, sand and what not and has not a single scratch.
Take a gorilla glass at the beach with all the sand and you’ll see how it gets

[dreamer_]

@Tami999 @EzioAuditore .

7 year old gorilla:

0 scratches in the screen. And that watch has been used for Ironmans, ultras, lot of trail running… It is true that gorilla glass is more scratchable but what we are not said is that sapphire is more breakable and that can be a real issue:

https://www.creationwatches.com/watchblog/watches/sapphire-vs-gorilla-glass-anticipating-the-winner.html

“Sapphire resists scratches more than Gorilla Glass but sapphire shatters easier than GG, which can withstand a sudden impact 2.5 times more.”

And about visibility, here is an example of what I mean: https://youtu.be/eebxpZMOEX0?si=Ji9hw4ZFqtxfCQ7I

That’s my personal opinion, of course. Based on my experience I prefer the cheaper gorilla glass without any doubt. But that could be different as another one. Our use of the watch is not the same but for me the GG is the prefered option

[sartoric]

@dreamer_
do you have a protective glass on it?

[dreamer_]

@sartoric nope. Btw. It’s a while that’s my wife’s watch now lol

[EzioAuditore]

@dreamer_ https://techtheday.com/sapphire-glass-vs-cornings-gorilla-glass-whats-real-score/

[dreamer_]

@EzioAuditore yes. It is more scratch resistant. I know that and I was already posting that . But despite being considered the “premium” option, it’s also known easier to break (not to scratch) and has worse visibility for everyday use (as you can see in that video). Many people will prefer the sapphire and that’s fine, of course. For me, after many years with GG, I don’t have any kind of problem with the GG (and I prefer It for the mentioned reasons)