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    Suunto ZoneSense

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved SuuntoPlus™ Sports Apps
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    • Theo LakerveldT Offline
      Theo Lakerveld Bronze Member
      last edited by Theo Lakerveld

      I’m starting to get convinced that ZoneSense is very useful. Have a look at the ZS vs HR / Power graphs for this workout ( https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/aktivitus-10wk-ironteam-endurance/szr-aktivitus-2h-v1 ) . This complied very well with my (subjective) feeling.

      1000013412.jpg 1000013408.jpg

      Previously used: Cyclosport HAC4, Polar S710, Ambit 2S, Ambit 3S, SSU, S5P, S9P Ti. Currently using: Race Ti.

      Brad_OlwinB ChrisAC O 3 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 4
      • Liviu NastasaL Offline
        Liviu Nastasa @Inge Nallsson
        last edited by

        @Inge-Nallsson I understand that in the first 10 minutes, the algorithm needs some data to create a baseline, but in my case it happens so often to have issues with the conductivity of the chest HR strap so I was wondering if the “setup” period is relevant in any way or how does that affect the indications later on.
        For example, this morning, the first 10 minutes were affected by erroneous readings of the HR, until the sweat creates the conductivity to allow decent readings. Pace was constant, flat terrain.
        ZoneSense.jpeg
        I would say that the indications from ZS are reflecting the way I feel, but I can’t keep from asking myself if the “baseline” period is not actually affecting the later results or by how much.
        HRV Runalyze.png
        That’s what I see in Runalyze, there is a certain jump in the R-R values when the stability of the readings is improved.

        Otherwise, the readings are ok … the interpretation seems inline with what I feel…but am I not fooling myself?

        sartoricS Inge NallssonI 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
        • sartoricS Offline
          sartoric Moderator @Liviu Nastasa
          last edited by sartoric

          @Liviu-Nastasa
          I guess it’s normal (or maybe not unusual) to have some scattered values at the beginning, and that’s the main reason for calibration.

          As you can see, despite the mess 😄 , there are some good sets of readings that are (very probably) used to calibrate ZS baseline

          hrv.png

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          • Brad_OlwinB Offline
            Brad_Olwin Moderator @Theo Lakerveld
            last edited by

            @Theo-Lakerveld looks great!

            Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
            • VoiGASV Online
              VoiGAS Silver Members @Inge Nallsson
              last edited by

              @Inge-Nallsson @sartoric Thank you! Then I will first work on the quality, the belt is already washed. Then I will try it again with Zonesense and hope for the best 😀


              Race S
              Ambit3 Vertical

              1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • ChrisAC Offline
                ChrisA Platinum Member @Theo Lakerveld
                last edited by

                @Theo-Lakerveld from your screenshot it’s also nicely visible that Zonesense tracks the changes caused by rising your HR with some delay, due to the time that is needed for them to effect your system and why it won’t work for fast paced intervals accordingly.

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                • Inge NallssonI Offline
                  Inge Nallsson @Liviu Nastasa
                  last edited by

                  @Liviu-Nastasa As @sartoric says, it is not unusual to see larger swings in the heart rate variability at the beginning of an exercise, and even getting scattered readings there, and from the plain text and videos Suunto have published (I’ve not read the scientific papers) they disregard the whole first 10 minutes, waiting for the body to reach a balance (homeostasis) within its systems.

                  As for a baseline, and please correct me if I’m wrong (Suunto people), there already is a general one established through the first couple of ZS registered activities. How much of that is kept or adjusted by consecutive recordings I’ve not seen any mention of. But the day-by-day difference to the longterm baseline should not start to be looked at until after the discarded first 10 minutes.

                  I will try to inform myself better by reading those published science papers, but there will always be a ‘black box’ of implementation from, in this case, Suunto.

                  Suunto Race S

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • O Offline
                    Oxhill_Runner @Theo Lakerveld
                    last edited by

                    @Theo-Lakerveld
                    Hi Theo
                    I followed @Brad_Olwin advise this weekend on a 2hr trail run with a lot of climbs. I noticed a similar trend to yiur data in that the DDFA score increased to a max at the start of a climb (a drop on the graph) before dropping and going negative after the summit.

                    Anyone know why this happens? You can see a clear lag between DDFA and HR which I can understand but why does your DDFA improve when HR increases initially? Just curious !

                    Brad_OlwinB 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote -1
                    • Brad_OlwinB Offline
                      Brad_Olwin Moderator @Oxhill_Runner
                      last edited by Brad_Olwin

                      @Oxhill_Runner DDFA is not measuring HR. There is a lot of information about this from Suunto.
                      https://youtu.be/bD3O4BZ9vIc?si=JXKmquFxU2TXahXx

                      Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

                      O 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • O Offline
                        Oxhill_Runner @Brad_Olwin
                        last edited by

                        @Brad_Olwin
                        Hi Brad

                        I get that it’s measuring HRV, something I’ve been tracking with HRV4Traing for a few years now too.

                        I was curious why the DDFA score improves initially as intensity (and so HR) increases before decreasing and ZS moves out of aerobic towards anaerobic zones.

                        Seems a bit counter intuitive that’s all ! Maybe a question for a cardiologist 😁

                        Brad_OlwinB 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • Brad_OlwinB Offline
                          Brad_Olwin Moderator @Oxhill_Runner
                          last edited by

                          @Oxhill_Runner you are only seeing one example and when HR increases ZS will not always increase, more complicated. That is why I gave you the video link. ZS does not measure HRV as the app you use. What you are asking is not necessarily occurring. However, there is a lag between ZS and HR.

                          Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

                          herlasH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • herlasH Online
                            herlas Silver Members @Brad_Olwin
                            last edited by herlas

                            @Brad_Olwin @Oxhill_Runner, I’ve seen that behavior consistently with ZS about having a big drop to positive value (green) at the start of a interval.

                            From what I’ve been reading, it’s all about a reaction reflected on our HRV when we introduce a big change in intensity, our HRV changes and kind of prepares for what is coming.

                            This can also be seen when you’re about to start a downhill and change intensity.

                            Point being, those big drops to green are related to times where are intensity shifts by a lot.

                            This is from a 3x15 mins @ threshold:
                            1000005531.jpg

                            SRS Ti
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                            Brad_OlwinB 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • Brad_OlwinB Offline
                              Brad_Olwin Moderator @herlas
                              last edited by

                              @herlas Yet at every drop you have a substantive decrease in HR. I think if steady HR and progressively increasing these will not occur.
                              42168ebf-87a2-468e-8fbb-2c6cb8a0e87e-image.png
                              6a05cb15-c7d7-4988-9b35-cda91d3f2250-image.png

                              Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

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                              • Theo LakerveldT Offline
                                Theo Lakerveld Bronze Member
                                last edited by Theo Lakerveld

                                To me, it looks like the ZoneSense reading follows lactate build up. I’m going to test this with the lactate measurement protocol from the trainers in the Norwegian triathlon federation (the people behind Blumenfelt and Iden). I have a lactate level blood test device. If the test result follow each other, this could be a really revolutionary functionality. I’ll keep you posted.

                                Previously used: Cyclosport HAC4, Polar S710, Ambit 2S, Ambit 3S, SSU, S5P, S9P Ti. Currently using: Race Ti.

                                herlasH 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 6
                                • herlasH Online
                                  herlas Silver Members @Theo Lakerveld
                                  last edited by herlas

                                  @Theo-Lakerveld have you looked at the webinar videos put up by Suunto on their YouTube channel? What you’re mentioning on ZS and lactate thresholds was already stated as a finding, ZS does follows that and Monicardi who came up with DDFA Index used in ZS, said ZS is +/- 5 bpms to heart rate in a lactate threshold test.

                                  Nothing really to demostrate here anymore, but give it a try for yourself 😉

                                  SRS Ti
                                  A3P (drill mode for pool swimming 🤦🤷)
                                  Galaxy Z Flip 3 / Galaxy S24+

                                  Theo LakerveldT H 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                  • Theo LakerveldT Offline
                                    Theo Lakerveld Bronze Member @herlas
                                    last edited by

                                    @herlas nope, I haven’t seen these. I’ve only read the superficial marketing stuff. I usually don’t trust that stuff before I’ve seen proof or have experience with it myself. So therefore I’m getting happily surprised with the ZoneSense functionality.

                                    Previously used: Cyclosport HAC4, Polar S710, Ambit 2S, Ambit 3S, SSU, S5P, S9P Ti. Currently using: Race Ti.

                                    Brad_OlwinB 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                    • H Offline
                                      halajos Bronze Member @herlas
                                      last edited by

                                      I’m curious to see a comparison of lactate levels, HR and DDFA index on the trails. I’m getting green ZS on uphills taking more than 3-4 minutes when I feel I’m working harder but not pushing hard and my HR is reaching my LT. Based on the HR I should be in yellow/red in ZS, but maybe flat running HR “zones” don’t apply to running on terrain with elevation change.

                                      Brad_OlwinB 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • Brad_OlwinB Offline
                                        Brad_Olwin Moderator @Theo Lakerveld
                                        last edited by

                                        @Theo-Lakerveld There are peer-reviewed scientific manuscripts published on this with much more sophisticated lab testing than you have but you are welcome to test.
                                        Kanniainen et al. - 2023 - Estimation of physiological exercise thresholds based on dynamical correlation properties of heart r.pdf

                                        Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                        • Brad_OlwinB Offline
                                          Brad_Olwin Moderator @halajos
                                          last edited by

                                          @halajos I am getting expected behavior on hills. I only have hills for running:)

                                          Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

                                          H 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                          • H Offline
                                            halajos Bronze Member @Brad_Olwin
                                            last edited by

                                            @Brad_Olwin good to know, thanks. I’ll continue experimenting once my MCL injury allows. Do you need to maintain a very stable HR (which often doesn’t happen due to small changes in terrain)?

                                            Brad_OlwinB 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
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