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Problem of cumulative elevation gain

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  • P Offline
    PatBess
    last edited by 20 Oct 2019, 19:45

    Good evening everyone,
    Friday I ran the Endurance trail of the Templiers in Millau, 105.6 km and 5300 m of D + according to the organizer and the trace on Trace de Trail.
    On arrival, my Suunto 9 Baro gives me 109.6 km and 4287 m of D + !
    Normal for the difference in distance, it is classic with all the watches because of the refuelings.
    But how to explain this final difference of 1000 m of D + ? It’s huge !
    We do not talk about a few tens of meters, which can be conceived, but there 1000 m it becomes annoying, including to know what it remains to run in D + !
    I had synchronized my watch in the morning before leaving, so normally AGPS was update.
    Does anyone have an explanation ?

    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
    • S Offline
      sartoric Moderator
      last edited by 20 Oct 2019, 19:59

      @PatBess said in Problem of cumulative elevation gain:

      Endurance trail of the Templiers in Millau

      Does the recorded path match the “official” one ?

      SVTS - 2.40.38
      SSSWHR BARO Amber - 2.8.32
      Samsung A5 2016 - Android 7.0
      Samsung A33 2022 - Android 14 - One UI 6.1
      Suunto App Android 5.2.5 beta
      Suunto App IOs 2.45.0 (19123) beta on MBP M1

      P 1 Reply Last reply 20 Oct 2019, 20:08 Reply Quote 0
      • P Offline
        PatBess @sartoric
        last edited by 20 Oct 2019, 20:08

        @sartoric Yes, exactly.

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
        • S Offline
          sartoric Moderator
          last edited by 20 Oct 2019, 20:13

          That’s strange
          If you import it in some route planner like GAIA , Komoot or similar , what’s the ascent calculated ?

          SVTS - 2.40.38
          SSSWHR BARO Amber - 2.8.32
          Samsung A5 2016 - Android 7.0
          Samsung A33 2022 - Android 14 - One UI 6.1
          Suunto App Android 5.2.5 beta
          Suunto App IOs 2.45.0 (19123) beta on MBP M1

          P 1 Reply Last reply 20 Oct 2019, 20:24 Reply Quote 0
          • P Offline
            PatBess @sartoric
            last edited by 20 Oct 2019, 20:24

            @sartoric I’m gonna try.

            F 1 Reply Last reply 20 Oct 2019, 20:31 Reply Quote 0
            • F Offline
              freeheeler @PatBess
              last edited by freeheeler 20 Oct 2019, 20:31

              @PatBess
              I’d rather discuss in the English version of the issue 😉
              but as I see @sartoric and his comment here the reason for the difference will soon be found 👍

              living sideways

              P 1 Reply Last reply 20 Oct 2019, 20:40 Reply Quote 0
              • P Offline
                PatBess @freeheeler
                last edited by 20 Oct 2019, 20:40

                @TELE-HO Unfortunately I do not manage to import the .fit file in GAIA !

                S 1 Reply Last reply 20 Oct 2019, 20:52 Reply Quote 0
                • P Offline
                  PatBess
                  last edited by 20 Oct 2019, 20:43

                  C5C57C52-F03E-4DD2-B74E-488B839F42E7.png

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                  • S Offline
                    sartoric Moderator @PatBess
                    last edited by sartoric 20 Oct 2019, 20:52

                    @PatBess said in Problem of cumulative elevation gain:

                    @TELE-HO Unfortunately I do not manage to import the .fit file in GAIA !

                    You should import it from the “Track” menu (anyway, it should be the same as “import”)

                    SVTS - 2.40.38
                    SSSWHR BARO Amber - 2.8.32
                    Samsung A5 2016 - Android 7.0
                    Samsung A33 2022 - Android 14 - One UI 6.1
                    Suunto App Android 5.2.5 beta
                    Suunto App IOs 2.45.0 (19123) beta on MBP M1

                    P 1 Reply Last reply 20 Oct 2019, 21:06 Reply Quote 0
                    • P Offline
                      PatBess @sartoric
                      last edited by 20 Oct 2019, 21:06

                      @sartoric My file can’t be imported ! It doesn’t work.

                      S 1 Reply Last reply 20 Oct 2019, 21:22 Reply Quote 0
                      • S Offline
                        sartoric Moderator @PatBess
                        last edited by sartoric 20 Oct 2019, 21:22

                        @PatBess
                        Maybe the fit file is too big.
                        You could try to save the route (from activity menu) and then share it (from routes menu) to save it.
                        Probably you’ll need to use some google drive as a temporary solution or you can email it to you

                        It’s a bit tricky, I know, but it’s for the sake of knowledge 😁 😁

                        SVTS - 2.40.38
                        SSSWHR BARO Amber - 2.8.32
                        Samsung A5 2016 - Android 7.0
                        Samsung A33 2022 - Android 14 - One UI 6.1
                        Suunto App Android 5.2.5 beta
                        Suunto App IOs 2.45.0 (19123) beta on MBP M1

                        ? 1 Reply Last reply 21 Oct 2019, 03:37 Reply Quote 1
                        • ? Offline
                          A Former User @sartoric
                          last edited by 21 Oct 2019, 03:37

                          Here is an illustration of how Suunto 9 ignores a lot of smaller climbs even though they exceed the 3 meter (10 ft) threshold. This is a screenshot of elevation profile from my today’s short run with a dog. Just to be clear, this is exactly what the watch barometer has captured, so I am comparing the watch absolute altitudes to the total ascent that it counted for the same run. All altitudes are in feet:

                          Screen Shot 2019-10-20 at 8.17.43 PM.png

                          Here are elevations at a few points into the run where the vertical direction has changed in excess of the 3 meter threshold:

                          Start: 203 ft
                          1’22: 187 ft
                          4’16: 205 ft (18 ft gain)
                          5’08: 193 ft
                          6’16: 216 ft (23 ft gain)
                          10’54: 128 ft
                          12’14: 140 ft (12 ft gain)
                          22’38: 110 ft
                          26’32: 195 ft (85 ft gain)
                          27’22: 185 ft
                          End: 214 ft (29 ft gain)

                          Adding all small gains the total comes to 167 ft.

                          The watch shows only 112 ft total ascent. I think the watch has counted only the final climb from 110 ft to 214 ft and perhaps a part of the climb in the beginning. For comparison, Strava shows 187 ft, which is too much but still closer to the reality than the Suunto’s low number.

                          F S 2 Replies Last reply 21 Oct 2019, 08:04 Reply Quote 2
                          • F Offline
                            freeheeler @Guest
                            last edited by 21 Oct 2019, 08:04

                            @silentvoyager
                            I never noticed this before as I normally go one bigger uphill, then downhill… looks like s9b can’t handle intervals up/downs not consistent

                            living sideways

                            B 1 Reply Last reply 21 Oct 2019, 16:59 Reply Quote 0
                            • S Offline
                              stromdiddily Gold Members @Guest
                              last edited by 21 Oct 2019, 14:18

                              @silentvoyager so it’s not necessarily a problem with the +/- 3m threshold but rather the way the algo is actually handling the changes?

                              Always carry a flaggon of whiskey for snakebite; and furthermore, always carry a small snake.

                              User of pretty much every watch since the Ambit 3 Peak. Now back in the family w SV :)

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                              • B Offline
                                Brad_Olwin Moderator @freeheeler
                                last edited by 21 Oct 2019, 16:59

                                @TELE-HO @silentvoyager @stromdiddily I have noticed this issue on smaller ascents/descents as well. I normally do much bigger climbs and descents, on the larger ones the S9b does a very good job. Would be interesting if it was the app and not the watch.

                                Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

                                P ? 2 Replies Last reply 21 Oct 2019, 18:05 Reply Quote 1
                                • P Offline
                                  PatBess @Brad_Olwin
                                  last edited by 21 Oct 2019, 18:05

                                  @Brad_Olwin In the S9B diary, the elevation is not right, so it’s the watch, not the app. Should an algo correction improve cumulative elevation accuracy ?
                                  How can we explain the issue to Suunto ?

                                  F B 2 Replies Last reply 21 Oct 2019, 18:22 Reply Quote 0
                                  • F Offline
                                    freeheeler @PatBess
                                    last edited by 21 Oct 2019, 18:22

                                    @PatBess
                                    I’m not 100% sure but I think @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos knows this kind of issue already and might have forwarded it to the developers. It’s not a brand new discussion for my info. We’ve had in mainly for non Baro watches where the offset is much bigger

                                    living sideways

                                    S 1 Reply Last reply 21 Oct 2019, 19:29 Reply Quote 0
                                    • S Offline
                                      suzzlo Moderator @freeheeler
                                      last edited by suzzlo 21 Oct 2019, 19:29

                                      @TELE-HO yes, it has been discussed, and someone (sorry I could not remember who) give some ideas for improvements… I think it has been passed to developers, but how knows… anyway it seems to be not so easy to include this little up/downs… for me it’s annoying, because my Suunto has no baro, so there must be ¿7m? of elevation to accumulate it…

                                      Ahh now I could remember that some of us, say that we will be happy signing a NDA and testing new FW with changes for this issue

                                      BR

                                      Suunto: Race, S9Peak, Spartan Sport Wrist
                                      Garmin: FR745, Edge 530
                                      SA topics:

                                      • Guides - https://forum.suunto.com/tags/guides
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                                      • ? Offline
                                        A Former User @Brad_Olwin
                                        last edited by A Former User 21 Oct 2019, 19:29

                                        @Brad_Olwin said in Problem of cumulative elevation gain:

                                        @TELE-HO @silentvoyager @stromdiddily I have noticed this issue on smaller ascents/descents as well. I normally do much bigger climbs and descents, on the larger ones the S9b does a very good job. Would be interesting if it was the app and not the watch.

                                        The error is proportional to a number of climbs rather than the total ascent, and my estimate that it is on the order of 3 meters per climb. So if a run consists of one or two big climbs the error is relatively small to not be noticeable. But if a run goes on rolling terrain with constantly going up and down the error accumulates quickly.

                                        In my custom trail running mode for small to medium runs I have total ascent next to the current altitude on the same screen, so I often watch the two metrics together.
                                        I can tell you that the total ascent increases in chunks and with a noticeable delay. For example I keep going uphill and I see that the altitude goes up but the total ascent stays the same for awhile, then increases by 10-12 feet (3-4 meters). If I crest a hill quickly it doesn’t capture the last few meters of the climb. But I noticed that if I stop at the top and wait for about 5-10 seconds then the total ascent may go up.

                                        So it is definitely the watch itself that does some sort of delayed averaging in addition to the threshold to filter out small pressure changes. But I think the way watch does that is overly conservative.

                                        S M F 4 Replies Last reply 21 Oct 2019, 19:32 Reply Quote 4
                                        • S Offline
                                          suzzlo Moderator @Guest
                                          last edited by 21 Oct 2019, 19:32

                                          @silentvoyager yes I think it’s 3m for baro, and 7m for non baro units (or something similar)…

                                          Suunto: Race, S9Peak, Spartan Sport Wrist
                                          Garmin: FR745, Edge 530
                                          SA topics:

                                          • Guides - https://forum.suunto.com/tags/guides
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