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    Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race

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    • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
      Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @Guest
      last edited by

      @silentvoyager can I can the race GPX ?

      Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
      Creator of Quantified-Self.io
      youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
      https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
      https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

      ? 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
      • ? Offline
        A Former User @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
        last edited by

        @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos I’ll share it once I get home from work. The day is just starting for me.

        I think the reason it is short is improvement in Sony GPS firmware that removed wobbling combined with the smart recording intervals.

        Trails do naturally wobble a lot, especially in my area where trails are rarely straight. GPS algorithms that are optimized for roads tend to cut through those wavy trails. On top of that Suunto has an algorithm where it tends to store points only about every 10 meters or sometimes even further apart. I can see how that would produce better tracks on roads, but on trails true one second recording would be more accurate.

        In the past the wobbling kind of compensated for the smart recording so at the end the distance on trails was surprisingly good despite tracks being not very accurate.

        There should be an option per sport, whether to use smart recording or record (and update the distance) every second.

        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 5
        • A Offline
          Alexbg
          last edited by

          @silentvoyager Totally agreed you. Option in each sport mode to activate update of GPS coordinates every second is a MUST!

          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
          • M Offline
            margusl @isazi
            last edited by

            @isazi said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

            Never used Strava FlyBy before, but looks very cool to extract statistics from public events.

            I’ve used it a lot but never thought of it as as such a data source. This stuff is pure gold :]
            e0402314-57d8-44c5-9aef-1d635fc35884-image.png

            freeheelerF ? 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 4
            • freeheelerF Offline
              freeheeler @margusl
              last edited by freeheeler

              @margusl
              it looks interesting… but what you don’t know is

              1. watch settings
              2. firmware
              3. settings and firmware of competitor watches

              🙄

              … by this table, Fenix 3 finisher 4:10 nailed it

              living sideways

              ? 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
              • ? Offline
                A Former User @margusl
                last edited by

                @margusl It is never occurred to me to use the developer tools console to print the data like this. I was opening them one by one. I’ll play with this more tonight. It should be possible to write a chrome extension that will automate extracting data like this.

                Looking at this table I realize that slower runners would probably have a bias towards longer distance. When someone stops their GPS positions tend to wander around adding a bit of distance.

                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                • ? Offline
                  A Former User @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
                  last edited by

                  @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos Here is the GPX file:

                  Move_2019_12_15_09_00_02_Trail+running.gpx

                  Dimitrios KanellopoulosD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                  • ? Offline
                    A Former User @freeheeler
                    last edited by

                    @TELE-HO said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

                    by this table, Fenix 3 finisher 4:10 nailed it

                    Keep in mind that in road marathons most runners end up running more than the actual marathon distance due to not following ideal tangents, waving around other runners, etc. Road race distances are measured following most straight possible path through every corner, etc.

                    freeheelerF 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                    • freeheelerF Offline
                      freeheeler @Guest
                      last edited by freeheeler

                      @silentvoyager
                      👍 …yes I know… but people like to see (edit typo) 42.195km on their watches when they run a marathon, no matter how many other runners they have been circling and how many water stations they used…
                      it is very hard to proof which watch is the most accurate as we don’t know some parameters.
                      I like to have an accurate watch, too.
                      The same run I did on Sunday and before that on Saturday last week showed 4m less ascent and 50meters more distance.
                      Could be anything from not exactly the same start/end or satellite reception (as I lost satellite reception a week ago I think this was it…) or I went around hikers in a different way…
                      What I want to say is that a proper statistical analysis is very difficult due to too many variables that we don’t know.
                      Some records are clearly off precision if you check them, no question. I hope we can help Suunto somehow to improve GPS distance and Baro ascents ✊

                      edit: this is it by the way: https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/LZ8RKDysG9Csh4i367AG

                      edit 2: the rout planning showed 7.06km and 256m ascent…

                      living sideways

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                      • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                        Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @Guest
                        last edited by

                        @silentvoyager the distance only from GPS based points confirms your distance.

                        I would like to run the same analysis on the GPX file of the competition (eg route provided)

                        You can actually do that your self if you like so.

                        GPX files do not have distance summaries, so QS uses the vincety algo to calculate the distance out of track points.

                        For FIT files (dont rememember about TCX ) the distance is read from the file summary

                        Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                        Creator of Quantified-Self.io
                        youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                        https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                        https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

                        ? 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                        • ? Offline
                          A Former User @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
                          last edited by

                          @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos I don’t know if I can get a GPX or FIT file for any other runners. Strava allows me to create a route from someone’s activity but apparently it now snaps the route to trails and that changes the distance.

                          Dimitrios KanellopoulosD M 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                          • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                            Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @Guest
                            last edited by

                            @silentvoyager Good one. You are right it aint easy. I was more wondering about the realroute aka the declared distance.

                            Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                            Creator of Quantified-Self.io
                            youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                            https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                            https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

                            1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                            • M Offline
                              margusl @Guest
                              last edited by margusl

                              @silentvoyager said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

                              @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos I don’t know if I can get a GPX or FIT file for any other runners. Strava allows me to create a route from someone’s activity but apparently it now snaps the route to trails and that changes the distance.

                              Try this - https://mapstogpx.com/strava/ , it builds GPX from Strava data streams, i.e. while Strava route export is not involved, some filtering and processing might be.

                              @silentvoyager said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

                              When someone stops their GPS positions tend to wander around adding a bit of distance.

                              Close, but not quite there - this is more like an example where slower runners tend to forget themselves, and add some extra distance due being lost 😉 (F5 with longest distance spent about 30mins off route)

                              @TELE-HO said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

                              @margusl
                              it looks interesting… but what you don’t know is

                              1. watch settings
                              2. firmware
                              3. settings and firmware of competitor watches

                              🙄

                              … by this table, Fenix 3 finisher 4:10 nailed it

                              Going too deep into limited data set that might or might not be already altered by someone will no be best use of ones time :] I can just say that there are multiple more significant factors there: rain, tripping wet forest, multiple start groups, neto timing, starting watch when already on the course, sightseeing, getting lost. Though It is possible to spot some trends and check if spread over distance and/or elevation somehow correlates with watch brand/antenna type/GPS chip/etc. Using Strava as a source also poses a huge bias on sample distribution: as a platform it does not appeal to everyone and it’s privacy settings form another filter. So I’d be very cautious to conclude anything out of this, definitely not most/least accurate watch. Consumer trends? Maybe. But knowing that doesn’t make this fiddling any less fun 🙂

                              freeheelerF 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                              • freeheelerF Offline
                                freeheeler @margusl
                                last edited by

                                @margusl said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

                                But knowing that doesn’t make this fiddling any less fun

                                😀 👍

                                living sideways

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • freeheelerF Offline
                                  freeheeler
                                  last edited by freeheeler

                                  yesterday and today I took short rides and compared on random/different short routes the track accuracies for Switzerland of the different GNSS combination settings…
                                  my takeaway: it is a tiny slightly little bit more accurate with GPS+Galileo but definitely not worth the higher battery consumption.
                                  I did not compare the distance of cours, as all routes are different.

                                  … but the activity with GPS+GLONASS has for 100% sure issues with the total ascent…
                                  GPS+Galileo is way more realistic!
                                  I suspect that the baro sensor holes was covered and it caused this pumping effect as I already know from Suunto Core… that’s a huge disadvantage and I hope that I don’t see this frequently. But to be honest, from a design engineer point of view: the location for the pressure sensor is a faulty design 😕
                                  especially when you have to tighten the strap enough to get halfway reasonable OHR readings…

                                  GPS only:
                                  https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/3cPQA91MbTn2CvY9mwa748LSNNAye1UmB8dHaxZKrE5TfLF

                                  GPS+GLONASS:
                                  https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/3cPQA91MbTn2CvY9mwaBCw1CQu9NP6XpUAoHDEaf27TohNr

                                  GPS+Galileo:
                                  https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/3cPQA91MbTn2CvY9mwaBEXrLDjsNiX6jxTNBbn2R2MjBLW7

                                  living sideways

                                  vimegarV ? 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                  • ? Offline
                                    A Former User
                                    last edited by A Former User

                                    Here is a comparison between Ambit3 Peak, Suunto 9 with one year ago firmware, and Suunto 9 with the current firmware. The routes weren’t exactly the same, but there are some common parts that allow to do some comparisons.

                                    https://quantified-self.io/user/JMRgYAdyBBXBsMbxUHGVRwlKoKq2/event/xT4vJjRS3TPvm8WuF6y2

                                    I’d say that in general the track of Suunto 9 with the current firmware is improved - it stays closer to Ambit3 Peak track, especially on straight segments. But at the same time it has a tendency to cut bends and corners. Here is one example of where it completely cuts through a series of short switchbacks:

                                    Screen Shot 2019-12-25 at 6.02.23 PM.png

                                    Compared to that the previous firmware had much more random wobbling, but I think that was also a reason of why its distance was closer to the real distance on trails - it would cut corners in one place and compensate that with some wobbling in another place. The new firmware doesn’t wobble as much but it still cuts corners, so it ends up being short on trails.

                                    1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                    • vimegarV Offline
                                      vimegar @freeheeler
                                      last edited by

                                      @TELE-HO said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

                                      yesterday and today I took short rides and compared on random/different short routes the track accuracies for Switzerland of the different GNSS combination settings…
                                      my takeaway: it is a tiny slightly little bit more accurate with GPS+Galileo but definitely not worth the higher battery consumption.
                                      I did not compare the distance of cours, as all routes are different.

                                      … but the activity with GPS+GLONASS has for 100% sure issues with the total ascent…
                                      GPS+Galileo is way more realistic!
                                      I suspect that the baro sensor holes was covered and it caused this pumping effect as I already know from Suunto Core… that’s a huge disadvantage and I hope that I don’t see this frequently. But to be honest, from a design engineer point of view: the location for the pressure sensor is a faulty design 😕
                                      especially when you have to tighten the strap enough to get halfway reasonable OHR readings…

                                      GPS only:
                                      https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/3cPQA91MbTn2CvY9mwa748LSNNAye1UmB8dHaxZKrE5TfLF

                                      GPS+GLONASS:
                                      https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/3cPQA91MbTn2CvY9mwaBCw1CQu9NP6XpUAoHDEaf27TohNr

                                      GPS+Galileo:
                                      https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/3cPQA91MbTn2CvY9mwaBEXrLDjsNiX6jxTNBbn2R2MjBLW7

                                      with GPS+GLONASS seems have better result than others

                                      S9 Baro Black (FW: 2.10.26)


                                      Actual: Beer 0,5 l./min. — Red Prawns 2 Ud./ min.
                                      Goal/Objective: Beer 1 l/min. — Red Prawns 3 Ud/min.


                                      freeheelerF 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                      • freeheelerF Offline
                                        freeheeler @vimegar
                                        last edited by

                                        @vimegar
                                        might depend where you use it

                                        living sideways

                                        1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                        • ? Offline
                                          A Former User @freeheeler
                                          last edited by

                                          @TELE-HO It probably depends on location. I’ve heard that GLONASS doesn’t improve tracking much in the USA, and may occasionally result in serious glitches. At least I’ve seen some pretty bad tracking glitches on my friends’ tracks who record with Fenix 5X. Garmin enables GPS+GLONASS by default.

                                          I would play with different tracking combinations more if that could be configured per sport. That would make a lot of sense and would allow using a different custom sport depending on environment. But since GPS settings are global I just leave that at GPS only.

                                          isaziI 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                          • isaziI Offline
                                            isazi Moderator @Guest
                                            last edited by

                                            @silentvoyager moreover, the best combination may vary by time (of the day, of the year) according to constellation status and visibility of the satellites. So what’s best one day, may not be the best another day.

                                            Watch: Suunto Vertical Ti

                                            Blog: isazi's home

                                            Łukasz SzmigielŁ 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
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