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    Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race

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    • ? Offline
      A Former User @freeheeler
      last edited by

      @TELE-HO said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

      by this table, Fenix 3 finisher 4:10 nailed it

      Keep in mind that in road marathons most runners end up running more than the actual marathon distance due to not following ideal tangents, waving around other runners, etc. Road race distances are measured following most straight possible path through every corner, etc.

      freeheelerF 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
      • freeheelerF Offline
        freeheeler @Guest
        last edited by freeheeler

        @silentvoyager
        šŸ‘ …yes I know… but people like to see (edit typo) 42.195km on their watches when they run a marathon, no matter how many other runners they have been circling and how many water stations they used…
        it is very hard to proof which watch is the most accurate as we don’t know some parameters.
        I like to have an accurate watch, too.
        The same run I did on Sunday and before that on Saturday last week showed 4m less ascent and 50meters more distance.
        Could be anything from not exactly the same start/end or satellite reception (as I lost satellite reception a week ago I think this was it…) or I went around hikers in a different way…
        What I want to say is that a proper statistical analysis is very difficult due to too many variables that we don’t know.
        Some records are clearly off precision if you check them, no question. I hope we can help Suunto somehow to improve GPS distance and Baro ascents ✊

        edit: this is it by the way: https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/LZ8RKDysG9Csh4i367AG

        edit 2: the rout planning showed 7.06km and 256m ascent…

        living sideways

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        • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
          Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @Guest
          last edited by

          @silentvoyager the distance only from GPS based points confirms your distance.

          I would like to run the same analysis on the GPX file of the competition (eg route provided)

          You can actually do that your self if you like so.

          GPX files do not have distance summaries, so QS uses the vincety algo to calculate the distance out of track points.

          For FIT files (dont rememember about TCX ) the distance is read from the file summary

          Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
          Creator of Quantified-Self.io
          youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
          https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
          https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

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          • ? Offline
            A Former User @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
            last edited by

            @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos I don’t know if I can get a GPX or FIT file for any other runners. Strava allows me to create a route from someone’s activity but apparently it now snaps the route to trails and that changes the distance.

            Dimitrios KanellopoulosD M 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
            • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
              Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @Guest
              last edited by

              @silentvoyager Good one. You are right it aint easy. I was more wondering about the realroute aka the declared distance.

              Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
              Creator of Quantified-Self.io
              youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
              https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
              https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

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              • M Offline
                margusl @Guest
                last edited by margusl

                @silentvoyager said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

                @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos I don’t know if I can get a GPX or FIT file for any other runners. Strava allows me to create a route from someone’s activity but apparently it now snaps the route to trails and that changes the distance.

                Try this - https://mapstogpx.com/strava/ , it builds GPX from Strava data streams, i.e. while Strava route export is not involved, some filtering and processing might be.

                @silentvoyager said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

                When someone stops their GPS positions tend to wander around adding a bit of distance.

                Close, but not quite there - this is more like an example where slower runners tend to forget themselves, and add some extra distance due being lost šŸ˜‰ (F5 with longest distance spent about 30mins off route)

                @TELE-HO said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

                @margusl
                it looks interesting… but what you don’t know is

                1. watch settings
                2. firmware
                3. settings and firmware of competitor watches

                šŸ™„

                … by this table, Fenix 3 finisher 4:10 nailed it

                Going too deep into limited data set that might or might not be already altered by someone will no be best use of ones time :] I can just say that there are multiple more significant factors there: rain, tripping wet forest, multiple start groups, neto timing, starting watch when already on the course, sightseeing, getting lost. Though It is possible to spot some trends and check if spread over distance and/or elevation somehow correlates with watch brand/antenna type/GPS chip/etc. Using Strava as a source also poses a huge bias on sample distribution: as a platform it does not appeal to everyone and it’s privacy settings form another filter. So I’d be very cautious to conclude anything out of this, definitely not most/least accurate watch. Consumer trends? Maybe. But knowing that doesn’t make this fiddling any less fun šŸ™‚

                freeheelerF 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
                • freeheelerF Offline
                  freeheeler @margusl
                  last edited by

                  @margusl said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

                  But knowing that doesn’t make this fiddling any less fun

                  šŸ˜€ šŸ‘

                  living sideways

                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • freeheelerF Offline
                    freeheeler
                    last edited by freeheeler

                    yesterday and today I took short rides and compared on random/different short routes the track accuracies for Switzerland of the different GNSS combination settings…
                    my takeaway: it is a tiny slightly little bit more accurate with GPS+Galileo but definitely not worth the higher battery consumption.
                    I did not compare the distance of cours, as all routes are different.

                    … but the activity with GPS+GLONASS has for 100% sure issues with the total ascent…
                    GPS+Galileo is way more realistic!
                    I suspect that the baro sensor holes was covered and it caused this pumping effect as I already know from Suunto Core… that’s a huge disadvantage and I hope that I don’t see this frequently. But to be honest, from a design engineer point of view: the location for the pressure sensor is a faulty design šŸ˜•
                    especially when you have to tighten the strap enough to get halfway reasonable OHR readings…

                    GPS only:
                    https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/3cPQA91MbTn2CvY9mwa748LSNNAye1UmB8dHaxZKrE5TfLF

                    GPS+GLONASS:
                    https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/3cPQA91MbTn2CvY9mwaBCw1CQu9NP6XpUAoHDEaf27TohNr

                    GPS+Galileo:
                    https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/3cPQA91MbTn2CvY9mwaBEXrLDjsNiX6jxTNBbn2R2MjBLW7

                    living sideways

                    vimegarV ? 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 3
                    • ? Offline
                      A Former User
                      last edited by A Former User

                      Here is a comparison between Ambit3 Peak, Suunto 9 with one year ago firmware, and Suunto 9 with the current firmware. The routes weren’t exactly the same, but there are some common parts that allow to do some comparisons.

                      https://quantified-self.io/user/JMRgYAdyBBXBsMbxUHGVRwlKoKq2/event/xT4vJjRS3TPvm8WuF6y2

                      I’d say that in general the track of Suunto 9 with the current firmware is improved - it stays closer to Ambit3 Peak track, especially on straight segments. But at the same time it has a tendency to cut bends and corners. Here is one example of where it completely cuts through a series of short switchbacks:

                      Screen Shot 2019-12-25 at 6.02.23 PM.png

                      Compared to that the previous firmware had much more random wobbling, but I think that was also a reason of why its distance was closer to the real distance on trails - it would cut corners in one place and compensate that with some wobbling in another place. The new firmware doesn’t wobble as much but it still cuts corners, so it ends up being short on trails.

                      1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                      • vimegarV Offline
                        vimegar @freeheeler
                        last edited by

                        @TELE-HO said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

                        yesterday and today I took short rides and compared on random/different short routes the track accuracies for Switzerland of the different GNSS combination settings…
                        my takeaway: it is a tiny slightly little bit more accurate with GPS+Galileo but definitely not worth the higher battery consumption.
                        I did not compare the distance of cours, as all routes are different.

                        … but the activity with GPS+GLONASS has for 100% sure issues with the total ascent…
                        GPS+Galileo is way more realistic!
                        I suspect that the baro sensor holes was covered and it caused this pumping effect as I already know from Suunto Core… that’s a huge disadvantage and I hope that I don’t see this frequently. But to be honest, from a design engineer point of view: the location for the pressure sensor is a faulty design šŸ˜•
                        especially when you have to tighten the strap enough to get halfway reasonable OHR readings…

                        GPS only:
                        https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/3cPQA91MbTn2CvY9mwa748LSNNAye1UmB8dHaxZKrE5TfLF

                        GPS+GLONASS:
                        https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/3cPQA91MbTn2CvY9mwaBCw1CQu9NP6XpUAoHDEaf27TohNr

                        GPS+Galileo:
                        https://beta.quantified-self.io/user/jBm0qOhihUMykVYD8HBJMshQrJc2/event/3cPQA91MbTn2CvY9mwaBEXrLDjsNiX6jxTNBbn2R2MjBLW7

                        with GPS+GLONASS seems have better result than others

                        S9 Baro Black (FW: 2.10.26)


                        Actual: Beer 0,5 l./min. — Red Prawns 2 Ud./ min.
                        Goal/Objective: Beer 1 l/min. — Red Prawns 3 Ud/min.


                        freeheelerF 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                        • freeheelerF Offline
                          freeheeler @vimegar
                          last edited by

                          @vimegar
                          might depend where you use it

                          living sideways

                          1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                          • ? Offline
                            A Former User @freeheeler
                            last edited by

                            @TELE-HO It probably depends on location. I’ve heard that GLONASS doesn’t improve tracking much in the USA, and may occasionally result in serious glitches. At least I’ve seen some pretty bad tracking glitches on my friends’ tracks who record with Fenix 5X. Garmin enables GPS+GLONASS by default.

                            I would play with different tracking combinations more if that could be configured per sport. That would make a lot of sense and would allow using a different custom sport depending on environment. But since GPS settings are global I just leave that at GPS only.

                            isaziI 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                            • isaziI Offline
                              isazi Moderator @Guest
                              last edited by

                              @silentvoyager moreover, the best combination may vary by time (of the day, of the year) according to constellation status and visibility of the satellites. So what’s best one day, may not be the best another day.

                              Watch: Suunto Vertical Ti

                              Blog: isazi's home

                              Łukasz SzmigielŁ 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                              • Łukasz SzmigielŁ Offline
                                Łukasz Szmigiel @isazi
                                last edited by

                                @isazi this.

                                You can also do some scouting prior to an important workout (a race for example) on Trimble GNSS planning website on constellation availability (you can also simulate elevation cutoff).

                                Also, Galileo is superior over Glonass since it provides better accuracy (up to 1 meter) on public frequency.

                                S9PP 2.40.38

                                isaziI 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                • isaziI Offline
                                  isazi Moderator @Łukasz Szmigiel
                                  last edited by

                                  @Łukasz-Szmigiel recently found out about Trimble, sounds interesting.

                                  Watch: Suunto Vertical Ti

                                  Blog: isazi's home

                                  1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                  • ? Offline
                                    A Former User
                                    last edited by A Former User

                                    I am seriously thinking about going back to using my old Ambit3 instead of Suunto 9.
                                    With the new GPS firmware I no longer find the distance accuracy acceptable on the local trails where I run.

                                    Today I did a trail run with a few of my friends. All of them currently use Garmin 5X and their distances were consistent between 7.40 and 7.48 miles. My Suunto has measured 7.11 miles. When I ran the same route with A3P a few years ago it measured 7.47 miles, so it is clearly Suunto 9 is the outlier in this case. The run consisted of a fairly short and steep uphill and a much faster downhill. The uphill part went straight up on a 30-40% slope, and the downhill part had a lot of switchbacks. On the uphill part my Suunto matched other watches, but lost about 6-8% compared to others on the 5 mile downhill.

                                    And here is why (this is a comparison with my previous A3P run):

                                    Screen Shot 2020-01-01 at 3.11.19 PM.png

                                    I see a similar picture in a lot of switchbacks. You can see how it stops short before the end of switchback, then cuts through. There are other places on the track where smaller turns are completely invisible on Suunto 9 track.

                                    Here is the entire comparison: https://quantified-self.io/user/JMRgYAdyBBXBsMbxUHGVRwlKoKq2/event/8ntW1ekBcZZMA46TQEC0

                                    @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos, is there any chance Suunto would consider different algorithms for trail running vs. road running, for example eliminating the 10 meter threshold when saving points for activities such as trail running. Or even better, giving us an option. If the answer is no I’d need to seriously consider an alternative. Fenix 6 is too inaccurate too, but I think that going with Fenix 5X might not be a bad idea.

                                    fejkerF 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                    • fejkerF Offline
                                      fejker Gold Members @Guest
                                      last edited by

                                      @silentvoyager whow, 30-40% slope … you are machine-like. You actually run at that grade? I would have trouble hiking at 2 km/h at that grade.

                                      SHUT UP LEGS!
                                      -Jens Voigt

                                      ? 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                      • ? Offline
                                        A Former User @fejker
                                        last edited by

                                        @fejker said in Suunto 9 with the recent GPS firmware was among least accurate GPS watches in today's 25K trail race:

                                        @silentvoyager whow, 30-40% slope … you are machine-like. You actually run at that grade? I would have trouble hiking at 2 km/h at that grade.

                                        I hiked uphill all the way, then ran downhill. That is pretty normal for trail running šŸ™‚

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                                        • ? Offline
                                          A Former User
                                          last edited by A Former User

                                          Here is another evidence about how Suunto 9 ā€œswallowsā€ distance on trails - a screenshot from FitFileExplorer application:

                                          Screen Shot 2020-01-01 at 11.21.20 PM.png

                                          This screenshot is from a downhill part of the run I mentioned above. Notice how the distances updates only every 10-20 meters. Normally it takes about 3 seconds to cover every 10 meters. However in the middle part it takes 21 seconds to increase the distance by another 10 meters while speed and cadence remain nearly constant. So clearly the trail had a turn or a series of short switchbacks at that point but from the watch point of view I barely moved.

                                          Where is FusedTrack technology when we need it the most in a case like this? Why FusedTrack isn’t enabled in Performance mode?

                                          Dimitrios KanellopoulosD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 5
                                          • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                                            Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @Guest
                                            last edited by

                                            @silentvoyager hi this is basically one of the last times I am going to mention the distance and fit files or expoorts. I hope it will be understandble for you.

                                            Imagine a tunnel. You run. When the watch determines the distance it will update it.

                                            We could also not write at all the distance at the fit file or exports like gpx export does in many cases.

                                            That said , if from ā€œcomparing with friendsā€ is your conclusions based I am sorry to say this is not something valuable or claimable as an argument.
                                            I don’t know what systems they used, were they all in the same arm ? All followed same footsteps ?

                                            I don’t even know if you had at the same arm the ambit or different arms and the s9 was on the left , thus taking the short corner from your screenshots.

                                            You want to test better and provide good feedback ?

                                            Wear the ambit and s9 same arm , 10cm at least apart via eg a buff and do a route that has the equal amount of left to right corners.

                                            I will be deploying on qs soon a feature to show the navstar distance as well so you know what is used in terms of fused speed.

                                            So I would strongly suggest to either test right either try not to waste your time.

                                            Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                                            Creator of Quantified-Self.io
                                            youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                                            https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                                            https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

                                            ? Fenr1rF 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 4
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