Sleep Tracking

DMytro

@nickk this turns outline you mention might be coming sooner than you think:)
There was a survey on that matter quite recently and they don’t make surveys for nothing I don’t think.

@dmytro said in Sleep Tracking:

@nickk s9p already has LEDs always on for HR monitoring, but the data gets acquired only every 12min as part of legacy code from s9b (source: chasethesummit review on s9b, commentaries from dcrainmaker).

Just checked on mine. It doesn’t. It’s off most of the time, and it takes upward of 8-10 sec to acquire a lock on HR if done on demand.

Suunto already uses its algos for sleep tracking on s5/s9b/s9p, works spot on for me.

Except the only thing provided right now is awake/sleep time and “deep” sleep, with the exact definition of deep sleep being up for grabs. The awake time isn’t terribly accurate. Unless you get up and walk in the middle of the night, it might miss quite a few minutes when you aren’t sleeping and actually know that.

Now, if you were to go full sleep analysis, you’d have to break out REM (exceedingly hard I’m hearing) and your deep sleep must be N2/N3 slow wave sleep and not just lack of body movement. So far only Fitbit scores okeyish in that department.

DMytro

@nickk Ok, I don’t have an s9p so won’t argue, but most watches are able to provide 24/7 1s HR with reasonable battery life, don’t think s9p would be an exception.
Yes, I agree that sleep is not as detailed as competition but at least start/end times look reasonable for me. As for awake time - can’t judge as I sleep through the night and rarely get any awake time.

@dmytro said in Sleep Tracking:

@nickk Ok, I don’t have an s9p so won’t argue, but most watches are able to provide 24/7 1s HR with reasonable battery life, don’t think s9p would be an exception.

Yeah, about that. Not most, no… Only Fitbit and Garmin and recently Polar, after they released Precision Prime sensor as part of their Vantage series. Before that Polar was pretty much every 5-10 min on all devices that supported OHR, like their fitness bands and M430. Poor M600 never got daily HR at all, even though it had enough battery me thinks. In fact, while LEDs are always on for recent Polar watches, I’m not sure their sampling rate is as fine grained as Fitbit and Garmin. COROS remains every 5-10 minutes, even on super-bulky Vertix with its big battery. I think Apple Watch is not continuous either, at least prior to the current gen. Neither are any of the WearOS watches.

As for awake time - can’t judge as I sleep through the night and rarely get any awake time.

I don’t always wake up in the middle of the night, but when I do… I can be awake for 10-15 minutes, can check my watch, and in the morning it would still report no awake time or just a minute or two.

I don’t blame Suunto. Sleep analysis is hard, even for such basic things as being awake. Which is why I hope Suunto will get algos from an established source like FB or work out a deal with somebody like Oura. Maybe Google decides to turn Fitbit into Firstbeat. That would actually be pretty cool.

Patrick Löffler

Thank you very much for all these insights. To me already the discussion is valuable. I have tried several different devices. Including Oura Ring, Whoop 3.0, Fitbit Sense, Polar Vantage V2, Garmin Forerunner 945 LTE. I know it is not scientific at all and I know it’s a lot of different devices. But Suunto actually is one of the few of those devices that can really differentiate between being in bed reading and sleeping. So Suunto definitely has some great working tech already. And at least for me tracking my sleep has lead to some changes in behavior already. Good ones. I go to bed on a much more regular schedule and I can see when I had a late dinner or sleeping at higher altitudes. And I find that interesting. I still can enjoy a good dinner or a glass of wine… and I’m not obsessed. Or not too much at least. So sleep tracking for me is a super helpful tool.

Jamie BG

@nickk
And even then despite 1s continous tracking with HR no one graphs it like that. S7 is graphed at 10min average?, Fitbit is a 10min? (or 5min can’t remember, but pretty sure it was 10min) average, Garmin is a 2min average.
Apple is dynamic - means at points its continous, and other times its periodic. They also don’t mention if they use actual points to graph or an average and if so the average duration.

You are incorrect about wear os - Suunto 7 is continous - 10min average graph. Also Fossil has cardiogram app so can adjust to continous (though not advisable as their battery sucks without 24/7 monitoring so continous wipes their battery). Also can used 3rd party apps like Cardiogram/Trace etc to get continous tracking, though again due to battery life it isn’t advisable. That will all change with Wear 3.0 as it will include using sensors on the low power coprocesser like the S7 does, and considering Tizen and Fitbit already do that, it will definitely be included for all.

Tizen have a continous measure option, but again not sure of their graphing method.

@jamie-bg said in Sleep Tracking:

@nickk
And even then despite 1s continous tracking with HR no one graphs it like that.

Maybe because it’s not easy to graph 50,000 data points in space that’s 1,000 pixel wide? Google Maps doesn’t show you streets and buildings in continent view either. Both Garmin and Fitbit let you zoom in on heart rate details and go down to 2 min intervals (I think 1 min for Fitbit). As does WHOOP. There’s, however, data to show when you zoom in.

You are incorrect about wear os - Suunto 7 is continous - 10min average graph.

Are you sure? Because I have S7, and I don’t remember it being continuous. The whole of last year when it was syncing to Google Fit there were huge breaks in the HR chart discussed in this forum. Precisely because the measurement wasn’t continuous, but was happening every now and then.

Well, let me grab my S7 (see below, good I didn’t bet $20 on last year behavior)

Also Fossil has cardiogram app so can adjust to continuous (though not advisable as their battery sucks without 24/7 monitoring so continuous wipes their battery).

Right, it can be continuous but it’s not advisable. Like jumping without a parachute from a plane can most certainly be accomplished. But for some reason, not advisable either.

How about we consider normal device functioning that gives us advertised battery life?

That will all change with Wear 3.0 as it will include using sensors on the low power coprocesser like the S7 does, and considering Tizen and Fitbit already do that, it will definitely be included for all.

The future is bright and marvelous, sure. I can imagine each of us having Suunto 99 Deep Space with hydrogen fusion cell and daily DNA mutation analysis. But what about now? The today’s WearOS watches? You know, the ones that will be left behind because nobody will be updating them to anything?

Can you show me a WearOS wearable that has a truly continuous tracking and lasts more than 12-14 hours here and now?

UPDATE: S7 indeed is tracking continuously, with LEDs always on (or at least, have been for the past 10-15 minutes the watch’s been on my hand). The HR acquisition on its tile is also instantaneous. So yeah… There’s one wearable that does it here and now. I humbly stand corrected.

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@nickk Suunto 7 has continious HR sampling 1s (actually faster as its HRV)

Patrick Löffler

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos Any chance to have the 1 sec sampling in S9P too? As dcrainmaker mentioned the sensor seems to already record in 1 sec Intervalls.

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos Cool, have it on my right hand now. So far LEDs are indeed always on by the looks of it, though in low power mode, i.e. not the activity tracking bright. The HR read is almost instantaneous when on HR tile though and it’s accurate, unlike an initial guesses thrown by S9P.

@Jamie-BG I stand corrected: there’s a Wear OS watch that does continuous HR and lasts 1-2 days. Kudos Suunto!

Patrick Löffler

@nickk Yeah! Suunto is truly on a roll! Very promising. Looking forward to the things to come.

@patrick-löffler Just peel off your S9P when on the wrist a bit and see if there’s green light. There won’t be. Currently it’s clearly turning on and tracking only periodically.

With LifQ sensor in S7 now doing continuous HR tracking however, I’m much more hopeful to see it improved in S9P as well.

But there’s a catch: S7 is 51x51x15mm and S9P is 43x43x11mm. Sure, WearOS is power hungry and all that. Still, smaller size means smaller battery. If my S9P currently lasts about 6-7 days with training, I don’t see how turning LEDs to always on isn’t gonna affect that.

Also, 1 sec or 10 minutes, it would be nice to make those HR charts in the app interactive and zoomable. @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos Any plans for that? Maybe a multi-day HR trend chart somewhere too?

Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

@nickk we had and we have tested continuous hr on the s9P. A 2 day damage it gets. Not big but also debatable as the profit one would get. In terms of both representation of data and after actions.

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos I understand the trade offs, and 2 days hit isn’t that much in itself. Perhaps, some middle ground can be accomplished? Not exactly continuous, but say once every 1-2 minutes?

Would make daily stress and Body Resources more accurate as there won’t be much lag between what’s happening and what the watch is showing.

Patrick Löffler

Following from that, does this mean the 7 is currently more precise than the S9P? Could be an idea to givve the user the opportunity to decide the measurement intervals.

@patrick-löffler Intraday tracking is definitely more precise. But that precision comes at a price of nearly daily charging, more bulk on your wrist, and some unique Wear OS usability challenges. Like an adventure of turning off a morning alarm when your screen is off in Theater mode for the night, or turning off a timer when you have heat gloves on by the grill

Also, when connected to iPhone, I can’t say Wear OS watch provides that much more smartness compared to sports watches like S9P.

So, long live S9P and the brilliant minds who designed it. Regardless of sleep algo and exact HR sampling interval.

Jamie BG

@nickk - that was the main point of the April Update - 1s continous 24/7 HR tracking, sleep tracking, body resouces.
A huge and major update that really showed everyone what the 3100 chip and Suunto could really do.

Jamie BG

@dimitrios-kanellopoulos
S7 impact was 0.5% per hour. its enough that you went from an easy 2 day battery life to a 1.5day battery life.
Its basically what forced me to change watch, cause after the usefulness of that update there was no way I was going back, and wanted AOD on, so battery life just wasn’t there anymore.

It was coming anyhow as I have steadily ramped up my activity tracking (not in the last couple of weeks - fell of bike and got a pedal in the ribs and then popped them - so am just starting to get full range of movement back - reckon will be ready to go again in 2/3 weeks) - as was starting to struggle to get 2 days with everything on and occasionally doing 2-3hrs of tracking on the odd day.

Jamie BG

@nickk you are correct on the smartness and is what me made to start to look at fitness watches and their longer battery life.
There wasn’t enough smart features I regularly used to make it worth it compared to improved fitness and training options and massive battery life.

Just wish Suunto watches had more smart features on them, like payment options, like being able to play music, and then proper maps etc. Really the S7 was perfect for me, except for the battery life.

Just wish Suunto watches had more smart features on them, like payment options, like being able to play music, and then proper maps etc. Really the S7 was perfect for me, except for the battery life.

I was getting about 2 days battery life on S7 post-April update, certainly more than a day with AOD. I think if you charge it when you shower or when you train with a different watch (I used S9B), the battery life becomes a non-issue.

That being said, I realized I’m yet to find myself in a situation when I have a watch but no wallet or phone, so contactless pay is hardly a deal breaker.

As per music, while Garmin is kicking everyone’s ass, Apple included, with their selection of services, you can have Spotify and Amazon Music in a small iPod Nano like dongle (check out Mighty Vibe). It weighs literally 20g and when combined with S9P, the overall solution is still lighter than most Fenixes, unless you go for nylon bands and expensive titanium body. It will win battery wise too, given Fenix 6 takes about 10% battery hit per hour when playing music, and with training and daily use I had to charge it every 3-4 days. 6X does last much longer, sure, but hey… it’s a beast!

Having maps on a device is nice, but then again. I can count on my right hand the number of times those maps were actually useful.

Garmin seems to be a proverbial jack of all traders, master of (almost) none. Firstbeat integration, strength training, and music are fantastic. I give them credit where credit is due. And they are very quick to respond to competition, like they did with COROS track mode, muscle heat maps, and support for indoor rowers.