Race strategy app
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@isazi - yes sorry. I meant with respect to the APP. as a sum of all vertical movement.
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@SvenSchroeter not really, as long as 42.195 is covered, that’s a marathon.
Marathon courses as any other race distance can be either flat, semi flat, semi hilly, hilly, super hilly based on elevation profile.
When talking marathon world records, there are some rules to make it elegible, this is managed by world athletics, course is measured, certified and well known is the overall decrease in elevation between the start and finish shall not exceed 1:1000, i.e. 1m per km (0.1%), (going off topic)
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@herlas - top answer for a slightly off topic question! Thanks for taking the time, appreciate it!
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I will have to look into these apps. Over the weekend I used a combination of intensity zones and a target distance to try and pace a half marathon. Appeared to work ok but I did have a wide range I was aiming for.
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@SvenSchroeter said in Race strategy app:
@isazi - just for my curiosity. I assume as a parameter pre race you enter the total elevation gain necessary to arrive at the top so to speak. And if your event has two hills to overcome, the app counts the first hill, and then continues when you start the second hill (as a sum of all elevation gain over the recorded activity).
If you input the route and add aid stations, the entire profile and remaining elevation gain are available. I use this for ultras and it is the most useful tool. The S+ apps I find not that useful as pacing is not possible in long ultras (you never know when you hit a mental low spot) and I am always slower through the night. In addition to the route profile and Aid Station waypoints, I use the time duration in the watch as well. The best S+ app is one that lets me see NGP, an average NGP would be very helpful.
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@Brad_Olwin would you mind detailing your setup and configuration for an ultra?
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I know this isn’t quite what you were asking about and it isn’t a quick fix for your next race but having tried the likes of PacePro and similar I’ve actually found that for me the best approach is to use the Power metric rather than pace. You could use something like a Stryd membership to load in a route and let it calculate a power and estimated finish time (if you use a stryd pod and sync your training so it “knows” you) or you could train on terrain of a similar nature to the race route and learn your power/pace relationship that way.
The entire fundamental point of Power as a metric is that it allows you to manage your effort across the entire race and, in theory, cross the finish line with nothing left in the tank. You naturally speed up and slow down with the undulation of the terrain. And if you are giving 100% then if you don’t hit your finish time you wouldn’t have done so regardless of tactics and at least you didn’t blow up before finishing
If you did want to use pace then there’s nothing stopping you using PacePro through a free Connect account and then setting up a Suunto Guide/structured workout matching the calculated paces.
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@Brad_Olwin said in Race strategy app:
@SvenSchroeter said in Race strategy app:
@isazi - just for my curiosity. I assume as a parameter pre race you enter the total elevation gain necessary to arrive at the top so to speak. And if your event has two hills to overcome, the app counts the first hill, and then continues when you start the second hill (as a sum of all elevation gain over the recorded activity).
If you input the route and add aid stations, the entire profile and remaining elevation gain are available. I use this for ultras and it is the most useful tool. The S+ apps I find not that useful as pacing is not possible in long ultras (you never know when you hit a mental low spot) and I am always slower through the night. In addition to the route profile and Aid Station waypoints, I use the time duration in the watch as well. The best S+ app is one that lets me see NGP, an average NGP would be very helpful.
I would love a little more input on how you have set this up. I only ask because I try and PRE PLAN a route using the APP before a race (either by entering it myself and saving it to the watch, or downloading it directly as part of the event route). Hence ultimately arriving at a pre planned route, and applying it to a ROUTE at the start of an activity, the watch can be setup to show remaining KM and ELEVATION? Is this part of a customised sports mode you have made for yourself by any chance?
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@far-blue said in Race strategy app:
I know this isn’t quite what you were asking about and it isn’t a quick fix for your next race but having tried the likes of PacePro and similar I’ve actually found that for me the best approach is to use the Power metric rather than pace. You could use something like a Stryd membership to load in a route and let it calculate a power and estimated finish time (if you use a stryd pod and sync your training so it “knows” you) or you could train on terrain of a similar nature to the race route and learn your power/pace relationship that way.
The entire fundamental point of Power as a metric is that it allows you to manage your effort across the entire race and, in theory, cross the finish line with nothing left in the tank. You naturally speed up and slow down with the undulation of the terrain. And if you are giving 100% then if you don’t hit your finish time you wouldn’t have done so regardless of tactics and at least you didn’t blow up before finishing
If you did want to use pace then there’s nothing stopping you using PacePro through a free Connect account and then setting up a Suunto Guide/structured workout matching the calculated paces.
For me power is not helpful. You have a different CP for power hiking and downhill running! Power cannot account for differences in the surface including rocks, sand, roots etc. Stryd had an entire video on how to use power for an ultra and it was way too complicated. Sorry, I disagree here. For road yes and trail, no. I tried Garmin pacing for races and climb pro. I did not find them helpful.in addition during long ultras, your perception of how you feel and your mental toughness will have a much greater effect on your pace.
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@FunkyLarma said in Race strategy app:
@Brad_Olwin would you mind detailing your setup and configuration for an ultra?
Sure, will try this evening. Packing and traveling for a short race (50k).@SvenSchroeter
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@Brad_Olwin said in Race strategy app:
@FunkyLarma said in Race strategy app:
@Brad_Olwin would you mind detailing your setup and configuration for an ultra?
Sure, will fry this evening. Packing and traveling for a short race (50k).
Appreciate it! No rush, take your time
Suunto Vertical Ti Solar (Daily)
Suunto Race (Wife Daily)
Retired: Suunto Ambit3 / Ambit / Core -
@SvenSchroeter said in Race strategy app:
@Brad_Olwin said in Race strategy app:
@FunkyLarma said in Race strategy app:
@Brad_Olwin would you mind detailing your setup and configuration for an ultra?
Sure, will fry this evening. Packing and traveling for a short race (50k).
Appreciate it! No rush, take your time
Ok, here goes, I had to wait for the update:) since Race Pacer was not released yet. For any ultra I will determine my expected finish time. There are a few ways to do this, one is on OpenSplitTime here in the US, the other is looking at races where I finish with other runners and see how those runners did in the race I will be going to. Third, I have a good idea of how fast I can finish a race now (I am up to about 50 ultras at this point).
I do not like, hate actually being told the exact pace I need to run a hill or a flat or etc., which Garmin does with PacePro. In an ultra it is impossible to do this, can be demoralizing and is no fun. If my race goes over one night or two I know I will be much slower at night (everyone is). Below is my custom screen set up for racing. I like it simple. I always load a route with aid stations and water drops as waypoints. I use the lap button to mark arrival at aid and then again at departure. I use two S+ apps, Race Pacer and Ultra Walker? The first will give me an idea of how close I am to my average desired pace and the second will record in SA how much time I wasted at aid as well as how much walking/running I did. I do not use food or drink reminders, it is hard to eat enough and I drink to thirst or a bit more. That is it. If the watch information is simple then it is easy to keep track of. For long races I use the Vertical and for shorter a smaller watch 9PP for example although I do like having maps.
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@Brad_Olwin said in Race strategy app:
@SvenSchroeter said in Race strategy app:
@Brad_Olwin said in Race strategy app:
@FunkyLarma said in Race strategy app:
@Brad_Olwin would you mind detailing your setup and configuration for an ultra?
Sure, will fry this evening. Packing and traveling for a short race (50k).
Appreciate it! No rush, take your time
Ok, here goes, I had to wait for the update:) since Race Pacer was not released yet. For any ultra I will determine my expected finish time. There are a few ways to do this, one is on OpenSplitTime here in the US, the other is looking at races where I finish with other runners and see how those runners did in the race I will be going to. Third, I have a good idea of how fast I can finish a race now (I am up to about 50 ultras at this point).
I do not like, hate actually being told the exact pace I need to run a hill or a flat or etc., which Garmin does with PacePro. In an ultra it is impossible to do this, can be demoralizing and is no fun. If my race goes over one night or two I know I will be much slower at night (everyone is). Below is my custom screen set up for racing. I like it simple. I always load a route with aid stations and water drops as waypoints. I use the lap button to mark arrival at aid and then again at departure. I use two S+ apps, Race Pacer and Ultra Walker? The first will give me an idea of how close I am to my average desired pace and the second will record in SA how much time I wasted at aid as well as how much walking/running I did. I do not use food or drink reminders, it is hard to eat enough and I drink to thirst or a bit more. That is it. If the watch information is simple then it is easy to keep track of. For long races I use the Vertical and for shorter a smaller watch 9PP for example although I do like having maps.
I find ETE to be quite waggling , how are yours?
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@cjanevate
an old “explanation” about ETE calculation https://forum.suunto.com/post/59143, but it would need to be confirmed or not.
i also find ETE to be too much changing, probably 5min average speed is way too small to expect having a good estimation. But, whatever the average it will never be accurate, moreover if ascent/descent is not taken into account (which i don’t know if it is). -
@Mff73 said in Race strategy app:
it will never be accurate, moreover if ascent/descent is not taken into account
Yep, I was thinking about that as well.
Thanks for the link! -
@cjanevate
and i don’t say it is an easy science
Predict race time is one thing (maximal effort), but predict arrival for leisure activities, looking at landscape sometimes or pushing hard some climbs, or … just based on any past average
When using it, i am taking it with a grain of salt : one need to look at it after having sufficient pertinent recent speed average.
If your buddy asked “when will we arrive?” one need to answer “wait 5min and walk/run at your normal pace, i will tell you in 5min” -
@cjanevate that is why I use the Race Pacer as well. I primarily use the ETE for the next way point.
