Suunto ZoneSense

Brad_Olwin

@Ghost Yes, this seems to be the usecase where it works (best).
But if you increase your intensity in a controlled manor already, why would you need Zonesense? I have no doubt that it works, I just have no idea when it could be useful
Also I would guess Heartrate would give you a similar result

HR will not give you a similar result, this is the point! ZS takes into account fatigue, or rest and anything else including stress that is affecting you. HR is far less reliable.

VoiGAS

@Brad_Olwin @Ghost : You are both right, you stated many times what it IS and I got it. What I don’t get is how it can be USED.
Sorry for not making myself clear, but maybe you have some examples how it can be helpful. Is it in training or race or both? Do you use it afterwards to verify your RPE or real time. If real time - what do you check? Just keeping it green?

That are the things that I - and it looks like I am not alone - struggle with

BRogers80

@VoiGAS
I would like to see some kind of FuesdZone feature that sets the Zonesense data in relation to the current performance. It would be great to get some sort of prediction of what zone in the Zonesense would get in 5 minutes (or some other time period) if you kept the current power.
The whole thing should be adaptive and adjust to the data.
So you could adjust your performance in advance.

This would help me, for example, to be able to counteract during the run if my effort is too low or too high.

Brad_Olwin

@VoiGAS said in Suunto ZoneSense:

@Brad_Olwin @Ghost : You are both right, you stated many times what it IS and I got it. What I don’t get is how it can be USED.
Sorry for not making myself clear, but maybe you have some examples how it can be helpful. Is it in training or race or both? Do you use it afterwards to verify your RPE or real time. If real time - what do you check? Just keeping it green?

That are the things that I - and it looks like I am not alone - struggle with

Here are my uses and not uses in training/racing

Running Intervals 3min all out uphill (ZS not good for these)
Tempo Intervals 10 to 30 min. (ZS yellow to red)
Steady State Intervals 20 to 60 min (ZS low Yellow)

Endurance Runs: I keep as much in green as possible but am ok with low yellow. Going up hills I often go too hard, when I see ZS in mid yellow (happens often early in long runs 3h to 8h) switch to power hike.

Racing: Easy to go out too hard. Most of my races are 50k to 100 miles so imperative to keep in green especially going up hills… Later in the race if feeling good I can relax on this a bit. In races, the adrenaline and anticipation will have my HR much higher than it should be so ZS is much more helpful in gauging real effort.

I examine afterwards to see if ZS matches my RPE, this helps me to refine RPE especially when racing. Am I really as tired as I feel? Or am I going too hard to early?

VoiGAS

@Brad_Olwin Thats what I was looking for - thank you!

ChrisA

@Brad_Olwin very interesting, thanks - especially that the anticipation would influence HR and how Zonesense is helpful here!

Brad_Olwin

@ChrisA Caffeine influences HR as does stress (work, family) so having fixed HR zones never made much sense. I figured this out over many years running ultras, I run how I feel and on long runs and races will have to put forth more effort than I want to. Pretty sure this is similar to how Courtney Dewaulter trains.

panadero

Hi All!!

I’m new to the forum but have been using Suunto for years (Traverse, Spartan and nor Race).

Today I unwrapped a brand new Polar H10 and started a nice running session:

Today there was a 2x5x100m Uphill series on the menu

Below there are two plots: HR vs Pace Plot and DDFAindex vs Pace.
As you can see, the ZoneSense output doesn´t make any sense.

I’ll have to test more the H10 in the future but, as far as I’m aware, it is fully compatible with Suunto’s new feature.
So far, the ZoneSense has been working “fine” for me when using Suunto’s HR band. Even when doing Fartleks.

Cheers!

ChrisA

@Brad_Olwin That absolutely makes sense! And you’re right: When one thinks about it, there are quite a lot parameters that would influence your HR, making fixed Zones really questionable!

Brad_Olwin

@panadero As stated many times here and in the information on ZS put out by Suunto. Short intervals will not work! This is clear in you DDFA index plot where the DDFA is trending up on the last set of intervals continuously and then remains higher than most of the rest of the run because you are fatigued.

thanasis

@Brad_Olwin while I understand this statement I find it hard to get why while running at maximal HR (180+) and still be on the green or early yelllw zone while my RPE is different . Eg

I think I need to understand this better . Also ther discrepancy between the watch and the app is significant with the app being more pragmatic , but I lose the real Benefit from the real time part .

Anyway

Brad_Olwin

@thanasis Your AT was at 154, a good 14-20 bpm higher than mine. My LT is somewhere around 163. If your range is similar to mine your LT is much higher. The graph you show is near AT for a few minutes and ramps up, not constant. For the first one you began getting into Anaerobic. The second enters anaerobic quickly and starts into VO2M, you just were not long enough in VO2M
Assuming we have the same range you should not hit LT until the high 170s to 180 bpm so you were barely at LT.

thanasis

@Brad_Olwin thank you !

herlas

@thanasis it looks like you were going too fast in first 10 mins of ZS calibration, by judging on the HR in this 10 mins and also that it shows right at minute 10 you were on yellow and moved to green. In general going too fast or too slow during ZS calibration will influence threshold measurements, doing a regular aerobic warmup is best.

Brad_Olwin

@herlas thanks. You’re correct.

Francesco Pagano

Today I did 6x hill repeats - around 3 mins running uphill at threshold pace with 3 mins recovery. ZoneSense was consistent with capturing the increased effort after each hill. Most importantly it detected my AeT at 160 bpm This post is not meant to add any useful information but just to show off a bit
EDIT: the change from green to yellow doesn’t happen at the end of each hill, but exactly at the point when my effort increased, when the hill turned into stairs. Amazing!

panadero

Thanks @Brad_Olwin for the reply. I hadd an in-deep look to the forum to realise that short intervals are not captured by ZoneSense. I guess with longer repeats (as @Francesco-Pagano shows) it will work better. Howrever, I have my doubts to be that accurate. Cheers!

Francesco Pagano

I extracted a stream CSV file from intervals.icu for that activity above, and asked ChatGPT to detect my AeT using methods such as DFA-⍺1 or DDFA, and here’s the response:

“Based on the DFA-⍺1 analysis of this new file, the estimated aerobic threshold heart rate is approximately 146 bpm. The detailed analysis is available in the displayed data table.”

That looks like an accurate value for me and for my fitness state on that day

VoiGAS

@Francesco-Pagano Really? This works? Did you also get a value from Zonesense you can compare it with?

Francesco Pagano

@VoiGAS As you can see from my previous post, SA shows a detected threshold at 160 bpm. I wish this was true!
I know that DFA-alfa1 method has limitations, but it’s fun to explore, and if you repeat the same exercise for multiple activities you get similar results. For today, for instance, chatGPT returned 142 bpm which I find accurate considering I’m a bit sick.