Is there still demand for a modern MIP endurance watch?
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If Suunto releases MIP bike computer then I don’t need MIP Vertical anymore and can switch to Amoled
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@gerasimos usually, “reaching hardware limit” is not something well known in advance, you plan for what you need, you buy what you need, you use what you need, because buying more than what you need is just a waste of money, PCB space, and even battery life, so choosing a microcontroller is a balanced act, and “provisioning for later” is a very, very hard task especially talking after 3 years, and important company restructuration (Suunto’s last 3 years where not easy, and definitely not the ideal space to think about the possible future updates size when the company was being sold, restructured, etc…).
Also, its pretty hard to compare with competitors, because, yes, they are doing roughly the same stuff , but hardware µcontroller choices are by the dozen, and even inside each lineup, you have a lot of combination of cpu power, ROM, RAM, features.
For example, take the STM32 H7 line :
https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32h7-series.html
its just, a single manufacturer, a single chip line from the STM32 range of products, and yet the flash storage range from 620kb to 2MB, and even the processing power varies from a single core at 200Mhz to a dual core at 400Mhz, inside the same “STM32H7” brand, in total there are 12 combinations !Once the updates start taking more space, you make do with what you have free, until you can’t do it easily, then you have to take time and man-power to optimize, find code that can take less space, do tricks with off-chip storage, etc., but its not easy
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@elipsus Thanks for the detailed explanation
I appreciate the insight. I don’t really have the technical knowledge to go that deep into hardware topics, but I can understand that all these factors together define the limits of a device.
That said, I still stand by my point: when a company sells today a watch at the “same price” with a MIP display, but it ends up receiving fewer or more limited updates compared to the newer V2 with an AMOLED screen, it can create confusion for new customers—and eventually lead to disappointment.
In the end, the V2 turns out to be more than just a flashlight and a display upgrade…
Most people who chose a device like this did so because they wanted a hardcore solar outdoor watch (700€)—so seeing it start to feel limited after just a few years is not ideal.I still believe this is part of a broader strategy that allows the company to keep evolving its product line—and that’s totally fair from a business perspective
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@Elipsus said in Is there still demand for a modern MIP endurance watch?:
Once the updates start taking more space, you make do with what you have free, until you can’t do it easily, then you have to take time and man-power to optimize, find code that can take less space, do tricks with off-chip storage, etc., but its not easy
As I understand it, we are not talking about storage aka ROM, but sheer memory. And as you might be able to free ROM, it is way harder to free RAM without compromising the speed of the execution. Even more so as those CPUs are rather limited in its computing power…
We’ll see what Suunto can achive to resue the situation for the Vertical owners.
@Egika said in Is there still demand for a modern MIP endurance watch?:
Plus you might not have noticed, but Suunto Race has not received the full update, but has also run into a limitation (which is in the new maps display, like labels on contour lines, etc).
Indeed, I missed that part. So, I’m even more lucky to have a Race S.
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@aiv4r I would love to see the sales on the Apex 4. I am curious how a MIP screen is selling at that price point. The Pace 3 and the Nomad are budget so I am not sure they could be compared.
Suunto Vertical, Race, Race 2, Race S and Run. Rocking the Vertical 2 Titanium at the moment.
Garmin: Fenix 7X, Epix Pro 51mm, Forerunner 265.
Coros: Pace Pro, Apex 4 -
I haven’t read through this whole thread but I’m not a fan of AMOLED, hence why I’ve not upgraded my original Vertical. IMO there’s absolutely nothing wrong with MIP and hopefully we will always have an alternative to the eye-burner that is AMOLED
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oooh yes, the lock in watch mode!
yes it would be nice to have the update on V1. I can definitely do very good without labels on the map, but the rest would be nice to have.
honestly I can also live with what we haveliving sideways
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@Stavrogin can’t speak to sales, but the A4 MIP is really darn good
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@freeheeler climb v3 update on SV1 would make me happy, that’s the only thing I would need to make my SV1 almost perfect ; actually climb v2 has some big cons. Not sure labels on maps would be readable (it’s a step forward on my SRs, mainly for altitude lines ; for the rest it’s not enough to be a game changer for now, there is not so many place names for instance, neither street/road names).
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@Tieutieu
do you mean the S+ climb app? -
@freeheeler nope I mean climb guidance
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A Garmin survey about the wish to have a MIP display instead of an AMOLED.
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MicroLED would be the best alternative in the long term, but not now when MicroLED displays are still very expensive and prioritized for their extreme brightness rather than economy.
MicoroLED displays have a very broad range of brightness and don’t suffer from burn-in, so they could be used in always on mode without a risk of damage while being more energy efficient than AMOLED. But the technology isn’t fully there yet.
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@sky-runner apple started using tamdem oled in some devices , it is two panel stack on each other. It provides higher brightness and each panel is not so bright by itself so it prevent burn in. But it must be expensive as you need two panels. And not sure about power consumption. But best part of MIP is low power consumption.
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@Tomas5 best part of MIP is its transreflective part. Meaning - it looks better when the light is shined on it, like in full sunlight. It doesn’t have to emit light to counter the brightness of the sunny day as the amoled has to.
Amoled is cool for smartwatches with rich interfaces, but to me - a sports watch should be a low key augmentation of a workout or outdoors experience.
I’m doing sports for the sake of sports or being outside. I don’t need 16 million colors histograms or graphs glaring in my eyes.
But yeah. I get it that the mighty market requires amoled.
S9PP 2.50.28
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@Łukasz-Szmigiel said in Is there still demand for a modern MIP endurance watch?:
best part of MIP is its transreflective part. Meaning - it looks better when the light is shined on it, like in full sunlight. It doesn’t have to emit light to counter the brightness of the sunny day as the amoled has to.
MIP is basically LCD - the same technology that was in old fashioned digital watches or in Ambit series. The only difference between MIP is LCD is that in MIP each pixel also have a memory storage (hence MIP = Memory In Pixel).
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@Łukasz-Szmigiel I agree but… Amoled is just easier to read - especially for older people. I liked the V1, it was a fantastic watch but the V2 I can read without glasses. And in activities the battery is similar.
The reflective screen on the V1 is much better on a bike than the V2.
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@Audaxjoe maybe… We should ditch the “I have it all” sports watch and take indoor and outdoor series apart
S9PP 2.50.28
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@Łukasz-Szmigiel said in Is there still demand for a modern MIP endurance watch?:
@Audaxjoe maybe… We should ditch the “I have it all” sports watch and take indoor and outdoor series apart
It is not about indoor vs outdoor. I hardly ever train indoors but I strongly prefer AMOLED. I run a lot on densely forested trails, and especially when the weather is cloudy, it is just not enough contrast to see a MIP screen well, especially when it is behind a sapphire crystal. I used MIP watches for multiple years, and I am not going back because AMOLED is much more readable in this environment, especially when looking at smaller details on a map. With a MIP watch (Garmin Fenix 7X), map screen often looked like a blur to me - I couldn’t see anything except the main route.
Keep in mind that with age ability to see low contrast details really declines. It is called presbyopia. Presbyopia often results in reduced contrast sensitivity, especially at dim light.
Having said that, to accommodate older users Suunto also needs to work on improving contrast of the map screen trough a better choice of colors. If there is a navigation route it is very easy to see, but try using the watch without a navigation route, and green on green trails are quite difficult to see, and other map themes are not much better.
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@Łukasz-Szmigiel haha. I have never had an issue reading the V2 outside. In the past this was an issue with backlighting but I certainly haven’t had a problem with the latest Amoled. I purchased the V2 on release.
Only issue I have is on the bike, the map screen dulls out if the watch is on the handlebars. I have a bike computer from Wahoo so not really an issue for me. However the V1 I had used that on long distance rides, and it was fine and the battery lasted days. I’d struggle to do this with the V2. Wahoo is better on the bike as the screen is so much bigger but the V1 did a fine job.
Now if they could make a reflective screen as easy to read as the Amoled…
Out of interest my first Wahoo had a reflective screen that was easier to read in bright sunlight. The latest version is backlight and I have had the odd occasion when it is harder to read in bright sunlight.
