Is there still demand for a modern MIP endurance watch?

[gerasimos]

@Egika I get your point, and yes—if there are actual ROM limitations on the V1, then obviously that’s a valid constraint.
Navigation improvements like these have been on the table for quite some time, and seeing them finally arrive—but only for newer (AMOLED) models—naturally raises some questions.

Also, when competitors are managing to deliver similar or even more advanced navigation features on MIP devices, it makes it harder to fully accept that this is purely a hardware limitation, rather than at least partially a product segmentation decision.

And to be fair, a company like Suunto doesn’t just “run into” ROM limitations overnight. These constraints are typically known and planned from the design stage of each model. So it’s hard to ignore the possibility that the limits of the V1 were already defined from the beginning—and that now we’re simply at the point where those limits are being used to justify pushing users toward newer AMOLED models.

I do appreciate that Suunto mentioned ongoing support for the V1, but the lack of what will actually be possible going forward doesn’t exactly inspire confidence

it’s not just about this update—it’s about how much headroom the V1 really has left, and whether users can expect meaningful improvements or just maintenance updates.

[Egika]

@gerasimos No idea how Suunto is planning the free capacities when developing a new watch model, but at some point they will reach their limit. However this definitely does not fuel any conspiracy theory about pushing sales for newer models.

Here’s a list of the things that have been introduced since the Vertical was introduced and that eat up spare memory:
I think the list is quite extensive and Vertical 1 has come a long way. Let’s see what the engineers will be able to shift around to make some goodies available

• Map zoom level up to 2km instead of 500m
• New intuitive UI structure with mini widgets and richer customization
• New Training Zone widgets for Training (TSS), Progress (CTL) and Recovery (HRV and TSB)
• HRV recovery measurement during sleep
• Multiple clock alarms instead of one
• Find my phone function
• Stand up reminder
• New SuuntoPlus sport apps in some default sport modes
• Running race estimates for 5k, 10k, half marathon and marathon
• Map ruler tool shows distance to nearby location when panning map
• Log pause resume reminder when starting to move
• Emoji support in mobile notifications
• Climb guidance feature during navigation for routes with elevation data
• Possibility to select watch face complications
• Second configurable short cut
• Screen lock in watch mode
• Map zooming now possible up to 20km
• Data field on navigation screen
• Automatic and customizable map re-center
• Sport mode specific display settings
• Vietnamese language support
• Added support for automatic compass calibration
• Added a button lock option in the control panel
• 22 New sports introduced
• Outdoor track running mode with lane selection for 400m track and custom track lengths 200m - 400m
• A wide range of new data fields possible to add in sport mode customization
• Support for pairing multiple sensors of same type
• Showing sensor information, like battery level and name
• New recovery state widget to summarize your recovery
• ZoneSense intensity target setting in sport mode
• Improved Climb guidance user interface and zoom enabled between waypoints
• Passcode feature for securing the watch when off wrist
• New improved morning report
• Connected sensors can be enabled/disabled per sport mode
• Sensor services can be selected separately in sport mode
• New default sport modes for duathlon, swimrun and aquathlon
• New data fields: Instant, avg and lap NGP, Peak power, Peak pace & speed and ascent/descent to next waypoint
• ZoneSense adjustable as target to follow in sport mode
• ZoneSense zone distribution shown in log summary
• Automatic transitions in triathlon sport mode
• Automatic transitions in swimrun sport mode
• Circular transition between sports in predefined multisport modes
• New map orientation selection for north/heading
• In-store demo mode for events and demo purposes

[gerasimos]

@Egika Fair points—and I agree the V1 has received a lot of updates over time, no doubt about that.

Still, reaching hardware limits is something that’s typically known well in advance during product design. So while all these additions do consume resources, it doesn’t fully rule out the idea that certain features are being held back or prioritized for newer models.

Also, the fact that competitors manage to deliver similar navigation capabilities on comparable hardware makes the limitation argument a bit less clear-cut.

In any case, I guess it comes down to what’s realistically still possible on the V1.

For that reason, I’ll probably end up going for the Vertical 2, just to have the full package of updates and features going forward—even if that means moving to AMOLED instead of MIP, which I still prefer. Not sure if that’s a good or bad thing, but it feels like the most future-proof option right now.

[cosme.costa]

@Egika I’m not in a conspiratory side and I do not think Suunto did not update the SV1 on pourpose but you listing the upgrades that has received the SV1 doesn’t help the SV1 owners, myself included. Is like saying: “you had enough”.

SV1 was advertised to be one for adventures, and the last update is just about that, and the SV1 is the one who doesn’t receive it. Even the SRs has receiced the full update, when it is the little brother.

As @gerasimos says, It is difficult to us to assimilate it when other brands are doing it with theoretical equal or less capable watches.

As I have said in other posts I could have bought the SR because, but I went to the SVTS because it /s/was the one for long routes/ultras/bike…, theoretically both have the same hardware except for the MIP/AMOLED, NFC chip and HR sensor/sleep algorithm. I hope I do not regret it, because the new functionalities are the ones that I would use.

I would like to know more about the progress in the SV1 optimization, if we are advancing and if we will get something soonish.

[Egika]

@cosme.costa
Actually I cannot help with the status of Suunto Vertical.
And I was not trying to say “you had enough”. I was trying to explain the current situation. I thought with listing those changes, that were made and most likely eat up resources, it would be easier to understand that this in not just a marketing descision.
In fact there were many more changes

Plus you might not have noticed, but Suunto Race has not received the full update, but has also run into a limitation (which is in the new maps display, like labels on contour lines, etc).

Me guessing: Probably Race received some more memory due to the higher resolution display compared to Vertical

Be assured that Suunto also is not happy with the current situation.

[Jan Krejčí]

If Suunto releases MIP bike computer then I don’t need MIP Vertical anymore and can switch to Amoled

[Elipsus]

@gerasimos usually, “reaching hardware limit” is not something well known in advance, you plan for what you need, you buy what you need, you use what you need, because buying more than what you need is just a waste of money, PCB space, and even battery life, so choosing a microcontroller is a balanced act, and “provisioning for later” is a very, very hard task especially talking after 3 years, and important company restructuration (Suunto’s last 3 years where not easy, and definitely not the ideal space to think about the possible future updates size when the company was being sold, restructured, etc…).
Also, its pretty hard to compare with competitors, because, yes, they are doing roughly the same stuff , but hardware µcontroller choices are by the dozen, and even inside each lineup, you have a lot of combination of cpu power, ROM, RAM, features.
For example, take the STM32 H7 line :
https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32h7-series.html
its just, a single manufacturer, a single chip line from the STM32 range of products, and yet the flash storage range from 620kb to 2MB, and even the processing power varies from a single core at 200Mhz to a dual core at 400Mhz, inside the same “STM32H7” brand, in total there are 12 combinations !

Once the updates start taking more space, you make do with what you have free, until you can’t do it easily, then you have to take time and man-power to optimize, find code that can take less space, do tricks with off-chip storage, etc., but its not easy

[gerasimos]

@elipsus Thanks for the detailed explanation
I appreciate the insight. I don’t really have the technical knowledge to go that deep into hardware topics, but I can understand that all these factors together define the limits of a device.
That said, I still stand by my point: when a company sells today a watch at the “same price” with a MIP display, but it ends up receiving fewer or more limited updates compared to the newer V2 with an AMOLED screen, it can create confusion for new customers—and eventually lead to disappointment.
In the end, the V2 turns out to be more than just a flashlight and a display upgrade…
Most people who chose a device like this did so because they wanted a hardcore solar outdoor watch (700€)—so seeing it start to feel limited after just a few years is not ideal.

I still believe this is part of a broader strategy that allows the company to keep evolving its product line—and that’s totally fair from a business perspective

[2b2bff]

@Elipsus said in Is there still demand for a modern MIP endurance watch?:

Once the updates start taking more space, you make do with what you have free, until you can’t do it easily, then you have to take time and man-power to optimize, find code that can take less space, do tricks with off-chip storage, etc., but its not easy

As I understand it, we are not talking about storage aka ROM, but sheer memory. And as you might be able to free ROM, it is way harder to free RAM without compromising the speed of the execution. Even more so as those CPUs are rather limited in its computing power…

We’ll see what Suunto can achive to resue the situation for the Vertical owners.

@Egika said in Is there still demand for a modern MIP endurance watch?:

Plus you might not have noticed, but Suunto Race has not received the full update, but has also run into a limitation (which is in the new maps display, like labels on contour lines, etc).

Indeed, I missed that part. So, I’m even more lucky to have a Race S.

[Stavrogin]

@aiv4r I would love to see the sales on the Apex 4. I am curious how a MIP screen is selling at that price point. The Pace 3 and the Nomad are budget so I am not sure they could be compared.

[MiniForklift]

I haven’t read through this whole thread but I’m not a fan of AMOLED, hence why I’ve not upgraded my original Vertical. IMO there’s absolutely nothing wrong with MIP and hopefully we will always have an alternative to the eye-burner that is AMOLED

[freeheeler]

oooh yes, the lock in watch mode!

yes it would be nice to have the update on V1. I can definitely do very good without labels on the map, but the rest would be nice to have.
honestly I can also live with what we have

[snow*]

@Stavrogin can’t speak to sales, but the A4 MIP is really darn good

[Tieutieu]

@freeheeler climb v3 update on SV1 would make me happy, that’s the only thing I would need to make my SV1 almost perfect ; actually climb v2 has some big cons. Not sure labels on maps would be readable (it’s a step forward on my SRs, mainly for altitude lines ; for the rest it’s not enough to be a game changer for now, there is not so many place names for instance, neither street/road names).

[freeheeler]

@Tieutieu
do you mean the S+ climb app?

[Tieutieu]

@freeheeler nope I mean climb guidance

[pilleus]

Found on Reddit

A Garmin survey about the wish to have a MIP display instead of an AMOLED.

[sky-runner]

MicroLED would be the best alternative in the long term, but not now when MicroLED displays are still very expensive and prioritized for their extreme brightness rather than economy.

MicoroLED displays have a very broad range of brightness and don’t suffer from burn-in, so they could be used in always on mode without a risk of damage while being more energy efficient than AMOLED. But the technology isn’t fully there yet.

[Tomas5]

@sky-runner apple started using tamdem oled in some devices , it is two panel stack on each other. It provides higher brightness and each panel is not so bright by itself so it prevent burn in. But it must be expensive as you need two panels. And not sure about power consumption. But best part of MIP is low power consumption.

[Łukasz Szmigiel]

@Tomas5 best part of MIP is its transreflective part. Meaning - it looks better when the light is shined on it, like in full sunlight. It doesn’t have to emit light to counter the brightness of the sunny day as the amoled has to.

Amoled is cool for smartwatches with rich interfaces, but to me - a sports watch should be a low key augmentation of a workout or outdoors experience.

I’m doing sports for the sake of sports or being outside. I don’t need 16 million colors histograms or graphs glaring in my eyes.

But yeah. I get it that the mighty market requires amoled.