Is there still demand for a modern MIP endurance watch?

stromdiddily

@Brad_Olwin said in Is there still demand for a modern MIP endurance watch?:

I agree with @maszop but not with a MIP screen because I agree 100% with @sky-runner . What I would love and probably a very small group of people. Make a Suunto Vertical Pro with an AMOLED screen and no OHR. I don’t want OHR and don’t need it. Make the watch a bit smaller (only height so 12mm or so) keep the battery size of the Vertical 2 or bigger. Without the OHR module and the battery drain from the OHR I imagine a watch that is not as bulky but that matches the Vertical 1 Solar for battery life. Make the VP watch as light as possible and we have a true outdoor/mountain expedition/ultrarunners watch. I asked for this awhile ago and I think the cost would far outstrip the user base.

I have basically done this with my V2. Turned off OHR and the thing lasts FOREVER. I charged last week some time, have three hours of training and downloaded the new map for my state off charger and am still at 85%.

safari

My v2 tests are ongoing.
My eyes have gotten used to the AMOLED screen. Battery consumption is definitely higher than v1. 3 days of training, walking, and daily use (maybe I played with the flashlight a bit too ) On the 3rd day, the charge was 69%. AOD (Automatic On/Off) was not always on, brightness was medium, otherwise everything else was on. My first impression is that connecting to GPS in dense forests is much faster than v1. I’m continuing to test it.

freeheeler

so after almost a week the voting is 2:1.
and there are die hard mip fans and people who could be won over by the new amoled technology.

I am using both and if I had to decide for one, it would still be mips with solar.
also for the reason of having the watchface visible always and it’s not blinding in the evenings.

but… garmin has microled model… what about this technology?
my expectation was that it allows for real AOD, I mean really permanently, and still reaching insane battery life.
when I check the details they either did something wrong or my expectations went all the way in the wrong direction. their fenix 8 with microled has an expected battery life in watch mode of 10 days compared to amoled 29 days

Elipsus

@freeheeler The vote is heavily biased, because people not interested in MIP simply won’t bother going to this post

About Microled, its more of an evolution of OLED (inorganic, much better lifetime, better color, responsiveness and luminosity).
And in theory slightly improved efficiency, but I think Garmin decided to showcase the bonkers brightness instead (also, the Fenix MicroLED is a sim-enabled watch)…
But its still not transflective (the LEDs have to emit their light, whereas MIP use the ambient light), so it will never reach the same kind of battery life as transflective display

freeheeler

@Elipsus
yes sure it is biased
I don’t expect suunto to develop another mips watch. I think V2 was a directional signal. else I would be very surprised.

I did not see the microled in real yet. the V2 already is very bright and sufficient on sunny days out in the snow or on the waters

thanasis

suunto has a MIP watch that was / (is?) doing relatively OK with the brand’s enthusiastits being bvery positive with it. The firmware has had some issues which the company tried to address (not all that successful) .

The market seems to be moving towards a different direction (than a purists’ watch) and the smartwatches are more than decent in the sports area… I am also struggling to justify using the V1 over my Apple Watch Ultra 3 on the trainings I am doing (mostly running, biking, tennis) and I think Suunto has realized that as well .

On the flip side… , g shocks with LCDs or MIP are also gaining momentum despite having not more much to offer versus suunto/ Garmin etc and their prices are exorbitant…
So I believe it’s the style that matters and the brand perception that keeps people buying things

gerasimos

In my opinion, with the new update (2.53.42) not coming to the Suunto V1, this is a pretty big letdown for V1 MIP users.
Features like these—especially on the navigation side—have been discussed for years now in terms of how they could improve the V1 experience. Meanwhile, competitors like Garmin, even on MIP devices (Fenix, Enduro, Coros etc.), already offer proper map labels, contour lines, and a much more complete navigation package.
At this point, restricting these updates only to AMOLED models feels less like a technical limitation and more like a deliberate strategy to push users toward upgrading to the V2 just to unlock features that arguably could have been supported on the V1.
It basically comes across as a way to drive repeat purchases from the same user base, rather than fully supporting existing customers—especially when other brands are already delivering these features without forcing an upgrade.

Personally, I’ll probably end up moving to an AMOLED V2 device at some point for these reasons, even though MIP would still be my first choice!

maszop

Maybe there’s space for a modern Suunto Core – basically a mix of the Core and some of the Vertical 1/2 features?MIP, GPS, no OHR etc. Outdoor and navigation functions only.

Egika

@gerasimos whatever the limitation in V1 feels like, it is no a marketing based decision, but rather a technical one. I think Suunto has clearly communicated, that they are facing resources (ROM) issues with Vertical 1. Instead of holding up the whole project, solving this for V1 was postponed to get the big update out for most users.
At the same time Suunto stated, that V1 will still be supported - as of today they just don’t know what exactly will be possible.

gerasimos

@Egika I get your point, and yes—if there are actual ROM limitations on the V1, then obviously that’s a valid constraint.
Navigation improvements like these have been on the table for quite some time, and seeing them finally arrive—but only for newer (AMOLED) models—naturally raises some questions.

Also, when competitors are managing to deliver similar or even more advanced navigation features on MIP devices, it makes it harder to fully accept that this is purely a hardware limitation, rather than at least partially a product segmentation decision.

And to be fair, a company like Suunto doesn’t just “run into” ROM limitations overnight. These constraints are typically known and planned from the design stage of each model. So it’s hard to ignore the possibility that the limits of the V1 were already defined from the beginning—and that now we’re simply at the point where those limits are being used to justify pushing users toward newer AMOLED models.

I do appreciate that Suunto mentioned ongoing support for the V1, but the lack of what will actually be possible going forward doesn’t exactly inspire confidence

it’s not just about this update—it’s about how much headroom the V1 really has left, and whether users can expect meaningful improvements or just maintenance updates.

Egika

@gerasimos No idea how Suunto is planning the free capacities when developing a new watch model, but at some point they will reach their limit. However this definitely does not fuel any conspiracy theory about pushing sales for newer models.

Here’s a list of the things that have been introduced since the Vertical was introduced and that eat up spare memory:
I think the list is quite extensive and Vertical 1 has come a long way. Let’s see what the engineers will be able to shift around to make some goodies available

Map zoom level up to 2km instead of 500m
New intuitive UI structure with mini widgets and richer customization
New Training Zone widgets for Training (TSS), Progress (CTL) and Recovery (HRV and TSB)
HRV recovery measurement during sleep
Multiple clock alarms instead of one
Find my phone function
Stand up reminder
New SuuntoPlus sport apps in some default sport modes
Running race estimates for 5k, 10k, half marathon and marathon
Map ruler tool shows distance to nearby location when panning map
Log pause resume reminder when starting to move
Emoji support in mobile notifications
Climb guidance feature during navigation for routes with elevation data
Possibility to select watch face complications
Second configurable short cut
Screen lock in watch mode
Map zooming now possible up to 20km
Data field on navigation screen
Automatic and customizable map re-center
Sport mode specific display settings
Vietnamese language support
Added support for automatic compass calibration
Added a button lock option in the control panel
22 New sports introduced
Outdoor track running mode with lane selection for 400m track and custom track lengths 200m - 400m
A wide range of new data fields possible to add in sport mode customization
Support for pairing multiple sensors of same type
Showing sensor information, like battery level and name
New recovery state widget to summarize your recovery
ZoneSense intensity target setting in sport mode
Improved Climb guidance user interface and zoom enabled between waypoints
Passcode feature for securing the watch when off wrist
New improved morning report
Connected sensors can be enabled/disabled per sport mode
Sensor services can be selected separately in sport mode
New default sport modes for duathlon, swimrun and aquathlon
New data fields: Instant, avg and lap NGP, Peak power, Peak pace & speed and ascent/descent to next waypoint
ZoneSense adjustable as target to follow in sport mode
ZoneSense zone distribution shown in log summary
Automatic transitions in triathlon sport mode
Automatic transitions in swimrun sport mode
Circular transition between sports in predefined multisport modes
New map orientation selection for north/heading
In-store demo mode for events and demo purposes

gerasimos

@Egika Fair points—and I agree the V1 has received a lot of updates over time, no doubt about that.

Still, reaching hardware limits is something that’s typically known well in advance during product design. So while all these additions do consume resources, it doesn’t fully rule out the idea that certain features are being held back or prioritized for newer models.

Also, the fact that competitors manage to deliver similar navigation capabilities on comparable hardware makes the limitation argument a bit less clear-cut.

In any case, I guess it comes down to what’s realistically still possible on the V1.

For that reason, I’ll probably end up going for the Vertical 2, just to have the full package of updates and features going forward—even if that means moving to AMOLED instead of MIP, which I still prefer. Not sure if that’s a good or bad thing, but it feels like the most future-proof option right now.

cosme.costa

@Egika I’m not in a conspiratory side and I do not think Suunto did not update the SV1 on pourpose but you listing the upgrades that has received the SV1 doesn’t help the SV1 owners, myself included. Is like saying: “you had enough”.

SV1 was advertised to be one for adventures, and the last update is just about that, and the SV1 is the one who doesn’t receive it. Even the SRs has receiced the full update, when it is the little brother.

As @gerasimos says, It is difficult to us to assimilate it when other brands are doing it with theoretical equal or less capable watches.

As I have said in other posts I could have bought the SR because, but I went to the SVTS because it /s/was the one for long routes/ultras/bike…, theoretically both have the same hardware except for the MIP/AMOLED, NFC chip and HR sensor/sleep algorithm. I hope I do not regret it, because the new functionalities are the ones that I would use.

I would like to know more about the progress in the SV1 optimization, if we are advancing and if we will get something soonish.

Egika

@cosme.costa
Actually I cannot help with the status of Suunto Vertical.
And I was not trying to say “you had enough”. I was trying to explain the current situation. I thought with listing those changes, that were made and most likely eat up resources, it would be easier to understand that this in not just a marketing descision.
In fact there were many more changes

Plus you might not have noticed, but Suunto Race has not received the full update, but has also run into a limitation (which is in the new maps display, like labels on contour lines, etc).

Me guessing: Probably Race received some more memory due to the higher resolution display compared to Vertical

Be assured that Suunto also is not happy with the current situation.

Jan Krejčí

If Suunto releases MIP bike computer then I don’t need MIP Vertical anymore and can switch to Amoled

Elipsus

@gerasimos usually, “reaching hardware limit” is not something well known in advance, you plan for what you need, you buy what you need, you use what you need, because buying more than what you need is just a waste of money, PCB space, and even battery life, so choosing a microcontroller is a balanced act, and “provisioning for later” is a very, very hard task especially talking after 3 years, and important company restructuration (Suunto’s last 3 years where not easy, and definitely not the ideal space to think about the possible future updates size when the company was being sold, restructured, etc…).
Also, its pretty hard to compare with competitors, because, yes, they are doing roughly the same stuff , but hardware µcontroller choices are by the dozen, and even inside each lineup, you have a lot of combination of cpu power, ROM, RAM, features.
For example, take the STM32 H7 line :
https://www.st.com/en/microcontrollers-microprocessors/stm32h7-series.html
its just, a single manufacturer, a single chip line from the STM32 range of products, and yet the flash storage range from 620kb to 2MB, and even the processing power varies from a single core at 200Mhz to a dual core at 400Mhz, inside the same “STM32H7” brand, in total there are 12 combinations !

Once the updates start taking more space, you make do with what you have free, until you can’t do it easily, then you have to take time and man-power to optimize, find code that can take less space, do tricks with off-chip storage, etc., but its not easy

gerasimos

@elipsus Thanks for the detailed explanation
I appreciate the insight. I don’t really have the technical knowledge to go that deep into hardware topics, but I can understand that all these factors together define the limits of a device.
That said, I still stand by my point: when a company sells today a watch at the “same price” with a MIP display, but it ends up receiving fewer or more limited updates compared to the newer V2 with an AMOLED screen, it can create confusion for new customers—and eventually lead to disappointment.
In the end, the V2 turns out to be more than just a flashlight and a display upgrade…
Most people who chose a device like this did so because they wanted a hardcore solar outdoor watch (700€)—so seeing it start to feel limited after just a few years is not ideal.

I still believe this is part of a broader strategy that allows the company to keep evolving its product line—and that’s totally fair from a business perspective