Several navigation issues (feedback)

dreamer_

@Joaquin I think I have found the issue.

First, I’d like to thank you for taking the time for the tests and the very detailed post.
After looking at your track, I have just realized that my track is a roundtrip track, and means the same way out and back. This is something that I always do by default when I test the navigation.

And that track it also means that in the way out (going up), I also take a fork that I repeat in 2 directions and then return to the track up to a mountain. In the way back (and going down) I take the same fork doing the same repeat and then return to the track. Or sometimes I take a completely different fork, and then I return to the track.

I have tested this convoluted track in every brand of the market but Polar. And the reason is that in short trail runs or in very fast ones, sometimes you repeat parts of the tracks and knowing your watch has strong and reactive indications is interesting.

For this same reason, specially in very technical paths, is interesting to have the audio navigation indications (that can enabled/disabled with just a trigger in the navigation options of the watch for most brands of the market). About this, Garmin has audio prompts for even roundabouts.

Said this. I went for an small walk to show you what I’m seeing
Have a look at this shot:

As you can see, there are 2 notifications for the roundabout (the way out, and the way back). When I arrive (way out, first time) to the roundabout, and when I’m almost at the roundabout, the watch is saying that there are still 18 meters left, and that’s impossible. There are perhaps 18 meters but to the point of the other notification (that should be triggered when you are back), not to the first one

Is it possible the watch in this roundtrip scenario is notifying the second notification, instead the first one?

Then, I walked like 300 meters and I turned back and I did not got any roundabout notification again (this works in Garmin). I think the autoreverse is not as reactive as it should be, as I was explaining.

But this is today with an extremely small test as it’s very late now here. If a run a lot longer, I have the feeling that the watch is giving notifications inside the turns and the notifications sometimes remain after those turns. And despite the notifications are ok, and in the corresponding direction, I think there’s something very strange with the distances and response time in this roundtrip scenario.

The track I’m using means also a check that enables the roudtrip inside Komoot.

Could you test a roundtrip scenario (way out and back using the same way)?

BTW, only Garmin and Suunto can notify roundabouts and forks. And I have even seen the go straight in a fork in Suunto (not only take the fork) so this is very nice (Coros and Amazfit only notify the turn left-right and Amazfit even misses several forks, if not most). I don’t understand why you are getting that “0 meters” in all the shots in Amazfit. As far as I remember, the Ultra 2 was accurate with the distances in my tracks. But I wouldn’t be surprised if they have broken something in their very last updates (which I have not tested). And in any case, that is not our problem here.

I think that in this roundtrip scenario, Suunto has something strange here. Perhaps is something that happens where I live or in my tracks, but the thing is that I only see this discrepancy with the accuracy in responsiveness and distance in Suunto (and in this roundtrip scenario).

sky-runner

@Joaquin I’ve noticed that turn icons (symbols) are incorrect at the bottom Suunto map screen on the 2nd and 3rd pictures. The icons seem to indicate sharp right turn if I interpret them correctly while in fact there are left turns in both cases.

Edit: I see that this has already been answered above.

Joaquin

@dreamer_ Thanks a lot for the very detailed feedback, really appreciate the time you took to explain and test this scenario.

If possible, could you please share a full screenshot of the route you are using (showing the complete roundtrip)? I’ll try to reproduce it on my side.

That said, unfortunately I have Madrid Marathon and a Trail Camp with El Corte Inglés next week, so it might take me a bit longer than usual to properly test this. In any case, I will definitely pass this to the dev team if I’m able to reproduce the behavior you’re describing.

Regarding your findings, this could indeed be related to the auto-reverse logic. It’s great that the watch is able to adapt to the direction of navigation, but we introduced a safety threshold of around ~200m before switching direction. This is intentional, as switching too quickly could be problematic in some scenarios and we need to ensure the user has actually turned back and not just made a small deviation.

Because of this threshold, if there is a turn event within that ~200m window after changing direction, it’s possible that the watch could still be “anchored” to the previous direction and therefore confuse turn events, like in your example.

That said, I believe these are quite specific edge cases, and in most normal navigation scenarios this should not be noticeable.

Also, currently turns are handled with two different behaviors:

Autozoom → the map zooms in advance when approaching a turn
Turn notification → triggered around ~20m before the turn

And I agree with you here: depending on speed, 20m can sometimes be too short.

We are currently working on unifying both behaviors, so turn notifications will be driven by a more dynamic threshold (similar to autozoom or off-route logic), which should provide more consistent and earlier alerts regardless of speed.

Again, thanks a lot for the feedback ️‍

BTW, I also personally really like the idea of having a microphone and speaker. However, this is handled by our product team, and currently it introduces trade-offs with the barometer performance, which is critical for us. Hopefully we can find a good balance in future generations without compromising barometric accuracy.

dreamer_

@Joaquin sure.

This is the usual route for these testings (re-uploaded with better quality)

The track is roundtrip: Up (with 2 additional forks) to the top of a mountain, and down repeating everything again

Notifications mostly work in both directions. It’s just about the accuracy of them, remaining the notifications inside and after the turns (refer to my previous post with the shots of the very first roundabout)

About the microphone/speaker, I was only speaking about the audio navigation notifications since this thread is about navigation thinking in the use of the headphones (I.E, the Garmin Instinct 3 does not have a microphone or speaker but has audio notifications through the headphones (and that watch is able to even notify the roundabouts and despite It can’t show the maps). Suunto has already invested in the engineering of very nice headphones and with very interesting products that are already in the market (like the Spark). I think that with several software updates (both watch and headphones), those kind of products could be used as a very nice marketing thing (for something like an “ecosystem”). I’m thinking also in running indoor or treadmill when there’s no GNSS signal.
But this is another topic, just to explain It further (and also to say that you already have the microphone and speaker in the market that could be used to go further). In my opinion, optional audio navigation notifications are sometimes incredible useful.

Thank you so much

dreamer_

@joaquin there’s definetely a bug here, and I found the explanation.

I made another experiment. If inside Komoot I don’t check the roundtrip, it does not make any effect , since the route is roundtrip (or at least, I can see indications in both directions despite of that)

But it is more. It’s Komoot what is making the bad turn-by-turn directions. Have a look at this photo:

A: Start point
B: End point of the route

What you see in the photos I posted in the other post is that Suunto is notifiying that 1 as the very first point, because of Komoot’s issue. That’s why there’s the 18 meters offset in the photos I posted for you.

So offset explained.

Now, about the photos you uploaded.
Photos 2,4,3,5. Suunto’s notifications seem to be wrong and that is a one-way track (no roundtrip).

What I’m seeing (3 and 5) is that there are several turns close together. It’s like there is something bad at the algorythms, detecting 2 very close left turns as an U-turn. Perhaps this is Komoot related.
What happens when turns are very close inside Komoot?

In my opinion, it’s very clear Komoot’s workaround is more a problem, once we know others are not having these kind of issues.

dreamer_

Today, I repeated the whole track.
A shot inside a turn:

Another one:

The offset issue is there all time. Worst thing seems this is caused by Komoot, not Suunto. And basically Komoot’s algorythms are not as strong as other’s (which is bad for Suunto).

And, I also got:

2 false out of the route. One was at the top of the last hill/mountain. Notifying a 30m offset.
False incoming climbs notifying a down when I was going up and also an up notification when I was going down. The first one was near the end of the last climb.

As explained before, I have the feeling that autoreverse needs some serious work too because of the lost turns.

runyx17

Just a note:
If I create a route in the Suunto app or the Suunto Route Planner, the turns are announced correctly, about 20 meters before the turn. If I create a route in Mapy .com, the turns are announced with a delay, usually exactly at the point of the turn. I dont have Komoot.

dreamer_

Explanation of one of the “Out of the route” . It seems an issue generated by Komoot:

Track inside Komoot:

Track inside Garmin Connect:

I have never finished that route where Komoot is saying, I allways finish at the top (as you can see in Garmin Connect’s track).

It does also explain the last bad climb guidance notification. The watch triggered a downhill pop-up, but I was going up (the track was not finished yet).
It means the Komoot workaround does not only affect to the turn-by-turn notifications, but ALSO to Climb Guidance.

Needless to say that, despite I had tested this track in Coros and Amazfit, I have re-uploaded the same track to Coros and Amazfit to be sure. This issue is only in Kommot.

Coros:

Amazfit:

Another thing:

The shot with the track I uploaded yesterday here:

https://forum.suunto.com/topic/15071/several-navigation-issues-feedback/39

In the first fork (of those 2), I noticed I have reversed Climb Guidance notifications (uphill when it should be downhill and downhill when it should be uphill). Those 2 small forks, are basically 2 slopes with a final U-turn. I understand it is very likely this issue is (again) caused by Komoot, since it’s Komoot who is creating all the logic that Suunto uses for the turn-by-turn directions and Climb Guidance.

What I don’t understand how is it possible I’m finding these kind of issues.

If Komoot is not accurate, will Suunto have the Komoot approach forever?

dreamer_

@runyx17 said in Several navigation issues (feedback):

Just a note:
If I create a route in the Suunto app or the Suunto Route Planner, the turns are announced correctly, about 20 meters before the turn. If I create a route in Mapy .com, the turns are announced with a delay, usually exactly at the point of the turn. I dont have Komoot.

Guys. This is important. So Mapy seems to have the same issue as Komoot.

And, one VERY interesting thing:

If I upload my track in Suunto Route Planner, the end is also ok. Look:

But in Suunto Route Planner, can I upload a GPX (provided by a race organization) and have turn-by-turn directions?

Because it seems we can have a fix here for several issues related to TBT and even Climb Guidance. And it’s also very likely that autoreverse can be (just a bit) more reactive once the offset is solved.

dreamer_

Route Planner does not have the turn-by-turn.
I tried saving that route in Route Planner and then uploaded into Komoot, and the same issues persist in Komoot.

dreamer_

I created a support case in Komoot with the GPX and a photo that shows the offset. I should not (this is not my job) but it’s also I can do with my track. I’ll keep this thread updated with their info (if there’s any). I also sent comments in the Suunto App.
I made some manual fixes but I’m not sure that an edit of the passing points will make any effect. I also fixed the end at that mountain in Komoot but this is not good at all . I should not edit anything downloaded (in this case I know the track, but that will not happen in a track of a place I have never been).
So I’ll test this edited track. I understand I have (at least) fixed the end at the top of the mountain (and the out of the route and the bad climb guidance notifications will not be triggered in that point), but the rest is really a mistery.
Perhaps Route Planner is the solution. If you can make the imported GPX tracks have turn-by-turn, that’d be really fantastic.

dreamer_

Today I did another test with a different round-trip track.

Editing those points of the track in Komoot does not seem to make any effect. The offset is always there.
After a while, I went out of the route like 1km and then I returned to the route again and started running back in the route. The autoreverse did not work until a very long time. I started receiving notifications but after skipping many indications.

Another little thing:

The text when out of the route is extremely small and completely unreadable.

This needs a little fix (that icon is just an invented one as an example, and colors and everything should be according to the layout)

dreamer_

After 10 days, I have the answer provided by Komoot

Hello there,
 
Thanks for your message.
 
What you’re seeing is related to how komoot processes imported GPX files, and I’m happy to explain what’s happening and what you can try.
 
When you import a GPX file as a planned route, komoot doesn’t display the track exactly as it is. Instead, it processes it through its routing system. During this step, you’re usually given two options:
 
Stick to original route: keeps the track as it is, though some sections may appear as straight (off-grid) lines if they don’t match known paths. Navigation can be less precise in those parts. Match route to known ways: adjusts the route to follow mapped paths, which can slightly change the original track but often improves navigation guidance.
 
For round trips where the route overlaps itself (for example, going out and back along the same path), this processing can sometimes lead to unexpected results. You might see gaps, shifted endpoints, or the route not finishing exactly where it should. This can also lead to “off route” notifications on your watch.
 
Regarding turn-by-turn instructions, komoot provides guidance slightly before the actual turn to allow time to react. On connected devices like Suunto watches, this can feel more noticeable due to how the data is transferred, so a small offset is expected. Larger differences are often linked to how the route was interpreted during import.
 
Here are a few things you can try:
Re-import the GPX file on the komoot website and choose Stick to original route, then review the route carefully before saving
If the route is quite long and you’re using Premium, try importing it as a multi-day Tour with the same option
After saving, open the route in the planner and check that the endpoint and path look correct before syncing it to your device
 
If the route still doesn’t appear correctly after this, it falls into a known area where GPX imports can behave differently than expected. At the moment, there isn’t a way to fully prevent komoot from processing the file through its routing system.
 
If you have any other questions or need assistance in the future, don’t hesitate to reach out. We’re here to help!
 
Have a great day!
komoot Support Team

They basically confirm:

GAPs and missing parts which can lead to “out of the route” notifications (and wrong Climb Guidance ones).
Delays with turn-by-turn indications

So those both navigation issues Suunto watches have, are basically caused by Komoot, as I was pretty sure. I’ll continue with the support explaining other things like several turns in quick succession (and considering the delays), but this is a dead end.

dreamer_

I can’t try until Sunday but I wanted to share if anybody wants to try, since I have an interesting answer from Komoot’s

Thanks for sending the GPX file.
 
I took a look and found a workaround that should help you save the full route:
Click New > Import a GPS Route
Drag and drop the GPX file
Instead of selecting Import to Plan a Route, select Import as Activity
Tap Import Activity

 

This saves the file as a completed Activity on your account. On the map, the route should connect all the way to the end.
 
After that:
Click the three-dot icon on the right
Select Make a Copy
Click Save

 

The copied route will be on the Saved Routes. It should then show the full route from the completed Activity, rather than being cut short like it was when imported directly as a planned route.
 
You may, of course, delete the Completed Activity after.
 
Let us know how it works for you.
 
All the best,
komoot Support Team

So this solves the pre/post processing issues (perhaps) for the GAPs, and perhaps the offset thing. I’d like to test it now, but I’m out this weekend, lol.

dreamer_

said in Several navigation issues (feedback):

I can’t try until Sunday but I wanted to share if anybody wants to try, since I have an interesting answer from Komoot’s

Thanks for sending the GPX file.
 
I took a look and found a workaround that should help you save the full route:
Click New > Import a GPS Route
Drag and drop the GPX file
Instead of selecting Import to Plan a Route, select Import as Activity
Tap Import Activity

 

This saves the file as a completed Activity on your account. On the map, the route should connect all the way to the end.
 
After that:
Click the three-dot icon on the right
Select Make a Copy
Click Save

 

The copied route will be on the Saved Routes. It should then show the full route from the completed Activity, rather than being cut short like it was when imported directly as a planned route.
 
You may, of course, delete the Completed Activity after.
 
Let us know how it works for you.
 
All the best,
komoot Support Team

So this solves the pre/post processing issues (perhaps) for the GAPs, and perhaps the offset thing. I’d like to test it now, but I’m out this weekend, lol.

I tried this. I noticied an slightly improvement and the track is 20 meters more using this workaround. But the offset and the false “out of the route” issues persist. In fact, I’m getting wrong Climb notifications in this round-trip scenario (things like downhill notifications when you are going up and uphill notifications when you are going down). Autoreverse does also need a serious work.

dreamer_

Latest Komoot answer.

Thanks again for taking the time to test the workaround and share such detailed feedback throughout this investigation.
 
It’s helpful to know that importing the GPX as an Activity first and then copying it to Saved Routes improved the route ending behavior, even though the small offset and the turn-by-turn and climb notification issues are still present on your Suunto Vertical 2.
 
After reviewing all the information you provided, including the original GPX behavior across different platforms, it’s clear that komoot is interpreting this specific route differently during processing. Your detailed comparisons have been especially valuable in narrowing this down.
 
At the moment, komoot still needs to process imported GPX tracks through its routing system, so there isn’t yet a setting that completely preserves the original track geometry in all edge cases. 
 
We're constantly developing and working on improving komoot, and rest assured, we're actively listening to the community to incorporate your ideas into our work whenever possible. Since komoot is used for various sports and purposes, we receive a wide range of requests. We collect, categorize, and evaluate all input to understand what will help the most users.
 
I've shared your insights internally for review. You can stay up to date with the latest features and improvements on our What's New and Product Updates pages.
 
Please note that we release weekly updates for the komoot app and website. Ensure your app is updated to take advantage of these improvements.
 
Thanks again for your patience, persistence, and the high level of detail you shared during testing.
 
Have a lovely day,

That basically means, end of support using the words an user wants to hear. Komoot’s support admits the issues but just that. Nothing further. This seems a dead-end in any case.

dreamer_

said in Several navigation issues (feedback):

Latest Komoot answer.

Thanks again for taking the time to test the workaround and share such detailed feedback throughout this investigation.
 
It’s helpful to know that importing the GPX as an Activity first and then copying it to Saved Routes improved the route ending behavior, even though the small offset and the turn-by-turn and climb notification issues are still present on your Suunto Vertical 2.
 
After reviewing all the information you provided, including the original GPX behavior across different platforms, it’s clear that komoot is interpreting this specific route differently during processing. Your detailed comparisons have been especially valuable in narrowing this down.
 
At the moment, komoot still needs to process imported GPX tracks through its routing system, so there isn’t yet a setting that completely preserves the original track geometry in all edge cases. 
 
We're constantly developing and working on improving komoot, and rest assured, we're actively listening to the community to incorporate your ideas into our work whenever possible. Since komoot is used for various sports and purposes, we receive a wide range of requests. We collect, categorize, and evaluate all input to understand what will help the most users.
 
I've shared your insights internally for review. You can stay up to date with the latest features and improvements on our What's New and Product Updates pages.
 
Please note that we release weekly updates for the komoot app and website. Ensure your app is updated to take advantage of these improvements.
 
Thanks again for your patience, persistence, and the high level of detail you shared during testing.
 
Have a lovely day,

That basically means, end of support using the words an user wants to hear. Komoot’s support admits the issues but just that. Nothing further. This seems a dead-end in any case.

Today I tried the TBT of that roundtrip route in my wife’s Suunto Run and it’s a good test to see the issue. The thing is that the Run only notifies the TBT with a vibration so you are not looking at the screen for the TBT.
It’s super clear the vibration is inside but mostly after the turns, which is very bad.

Joaquin

@dreamer_ Run is a different platform compared to the other Suunto watches, even with its own dedicated R&D, so it’s normal to see noticeable differences in certain areas.

The focus of Run is to be Suunto’s entry-level offering, mainly targeted at road runners who occasionally practice other sports.

The goal behind Run is to provide an affordable watch for users who are not 100% outdoor-focused, allowing them to experience the Suunto ecosystem at a more accessible price point. If they enjoy the experience, they can later move up to the more “premium” lineup such as the Suunto Race S, Suunto Vertical 2, Race 2, and so on.

As an outdoor user myself, I completely understand your concerns and I even share some of them. However, I think we also need to carefully differentiate the entry-level Run range from the more advanced models. Let’s see what surprises a future Run 2 may bring.

Regarding the turns, this only happens to you with Komoot, right? With routes created directly in the Suunto app, everything works perfectly?

dreamer_

@Joaquin said in Several navigation issues (feedback):

@dreamer_ Run is a different platform compared to the other Suunto watches, even with its own dedicated R&D, so it’s normal to see noticeable differences in certain areas.

The focus of Run is to be Suunto’s entry-level offering, mainly targeted at road runners who occasionally practice other sports.

The goal behind Run is to provide an affordable watch for users who are not 100% outdoor-focused, allowing them to experience the Suunto ecosystem at a more accessible price point. If they enjoy the experience, they can later move up to the more “premium” lineup such as the Suunto Race S, Suunto Vertical 2, Race 2, and so on.

As an outdoor user myself, I completely understand your concerns and I even share some of them. However, I think we also need to carefully differentiate the entry-level Run range from the more advanced models. Let’s see what surprises a future Run 2 may bring.

Regarding the turns, this only happens to you with Komoot, right? With routes created directly in the Suunto app, everything works perfectly?

I tested the Run using the route created with Komoot’s algorythms. That’s the key of my post (no matter if I was using the Run or my Vertical 2 Titanium, since I used Komoot’s algorythms for creating the GPX with TBT indications).

About the issue, you are right. It seems created by Komoot and it happens in both my Vertical 2 and my wife’s Run. It’s very clear Joaquin. In fact, Komoot’s support confirmed the offset is created by them.
There are also several things I was talking , like missing the final part in that route because Komoot’s issue or wrong Climb notifications because Komoot does a pre/post-processing of the routes, affecting the performance of the navigation to several things.

But if you want TBT in a route that is already created (I.E, a GPX track provided by a race organization) , at this moment. you need to use Komoot.

In my opinion, now you have a super nice tool like Route Planner, I’d be incredible nice if all the algorythms are made by Suunto instead of using Komoot’s.