Suunto 7 Successor

Jamie BG

@olymay
Also look at FR745 / FR945 / Enduro. Note that new F7 / Epix 2 (F7 with AMOLED - not sure if it loses anything or gains any extra features) are expected to be announced this month (maybe as early as the 17th/18th). No idea yet, other than stamina, whether any new additional features or improvements - so may also be a good time to pick up a second hand as people exchange for a F7.

I went from S7 to F6xPs and have pretty much found everything you point out to be very true, and helped me get from couch to 5k using one of training plans. But have also used other built in plans for strength training, cardio and even a little bit of Yoga - broadening what I do.
Am also seriously getting tempted by what these watches can do with indoor cycles that work in conjunction with the watch - which would be a nice change around for when the weather is bad.

olymay

@cosme-costa I’m happy to wait, but not forever. If new features or devices are coming then at least a rough indication of this and a timescale would be nice. Otherwise customers may think nothing is coming and buy something different. For example, if I knew for certain that a new S7 was coming in Q1/Q2 2022 then I would probably wait to see what it is like (and probably buy it). But not knowing makes me think nothing is coming and I start to look elsewhere.

Mega, thanks for the tips. It aligns roughly with how I was already thinking and it’s really great to know I wasn’t far off the mark.

There is a 50km trail race in December and that is my target. I prefer trails and despise running on tarmac.

Last year I was doing >20km and not completely dying at the end, so I know I can get to that distance again. I then just need to double it
My thoughts were to do another couple of weeks of 5-6 km runs, to build up some base stamina and then start to slowly build up the distance a little each week.
Previously, my schedule was a short (7-10km) run twice a week on weekdays (often tues and thurs) and then a longer run at the weekend. This was mainly governed by working in the week and not having a huge amount of time free to go for a long run.

olymay

@nigel-taylor-0 said in Suunto 7 Successor:

@olymay said in Suunto 7 Successor:

I guess the next few weeks will be interesting, as I am expecting Garmin to announce the Fenix 7 and Epix 2, and Suunto to announce something (probably S5Peak?)…?

The sale of Suunto to Liesheng (who have the Haylou brand) might be a bit of a complicating factor with regards to future Suunto watches?

https://www.suunto.com/en-gb/News/new-ownership-broadens-suuntos-shoulders-in-developing-fit-for-purpose-outdoor-products/

Maybe add Suunto activity tracking (and mapping) smarts to something like their RS3 >> https://haylou.info/rs3.html
…and you’ve got a future S7 fork that moves away from Wear OS (which is going to be difficult to compete against Samsung and a future Pixel) - and with that brings along improved battery life.

Yeah… I’m not sure how I feel about this sale. I’m not positive or negative. But I am, as ever, cautiously optimistic. Who knows what it will bring.

One thing I am confident on though, is there will be change, for better or worse.

olymay

@jamie-bg yeah, they are also some great watches. And if the rumours are true then the FR755 and FR955 will also be announced alongside the F7 and E2.
The same rumours also point towards a Jan 17th date.

The E2 sounds like it will be the same as the F7 but with an AMOLED screen and no solar charging. If it’s not too crazy expensive then this might be the one I look at most, purely because I have become so used to the stunning screen on the S7

If the F6 becomes available for a crazy cheap price then I’ll look at it. But rumours are that the F7 will have better sensors (HR etc), touchscreen (useful for maps), and a bunch of other major upgrades (some useful, some not for me).

I don’t need crazy battery life, as IF I can complete this 50km ultra than it will likely be as far as I go distance wise (mind you, I said that about the half marathon ).

I’m also looking at moving house soon and want to build myself a pain cave / gym area. Part of that is to get a smart bike, a rower, and weights, etc. Having a watch that can track all of that and connect to other bits of tech is going to be crucial, so I am also trying to future proof any purchases.

Brad_Olwin

@olymay I have to agree with @cosme-costa. What you are looking for is not in a watch and no watch will help you achieve a goal to train for a 50km ultra. There are a LOT of training plans developed for marathons and marathons are far, far different than ultras. The training is different and running on trails cannot be equated to interval training on the pavement or running steady state pace on pavement.
Sorry, I don’t often interject my personal beliefs here but you are making a mistake. The S7 is a perfect tool for what you are attempting to achieve. Body battery, resources, etc are NOT going to help you train, this is all just fluff to make you believe your watch is telling you something. The FirstBeat metrics are not adequate for ultras, believe me, I have a lot of experience with those metrics and my performance and how I feel!
You need base aerobic training, at your fitness level doing too much anaerobic efforts will get you nowhere.
I strongly suggest you get a copy of the Uphill Athlete, read the first few chapters and do an Aerobic Threshold Test, followed by an anaerobic test. That will set up the zones you should run in for months, it is unlikely you have a good aerobic base. The only thing you may need is a watch that will accept an HR belt, however, I have found the S7 to have the best OHR of the bunch. You can purchase Training Plans from Uphill Athlete that integrate with Training Peaks. I have looked at what I can see from them and think they are fairly good. That will help you to organize your training.

In Jason Koop’s book he believes that RPE (relative perceived effort) is the most reliable measure, not HR, not Power and frankly I would agree with that as I pay more attention to how I feel than to maintaining a particular Pace/HR.
Training for an ultra if you have no distance training requires not only training your cardiovascular system for endurance (long runs) but your ligaments, joints, etc. You cannot build up your distance quickly, you will get injured and be out. No more than 10% per week and until you have a solid aerobic base (that may take a year or more) you should not participate in hard sustained anaerobic efforts. It won’t help you. Ultra training is not a seasonal thing, it will require a substantial time commitment and effort, consistency is the key! Neither a Garmin nor a Suunto nor Polar nor Coros will get you there. All you need is time and a gauge of your effort! I could do my training without a watch and be fine.

Sorry my 2 cents worth because you are heading down the wrong path.

olymay

@brad_olwin thanks Brad, I really do appreciate the advice
Although I may not be going as wrong as you think (at least I hope not).

My plan is to increase distance at a maximum of 10% per week, most likely less (certainly at the start) and this will be based entirely on how I feel.
I have made the mistake of going too far too soon in the past and ended up either very sore or injured. I learnt the hard way.

I am not just looking at a watch to help me train for an ultra, I want a complete package, something that essentially does it all.
Yes, I will use it for the ultra training, but I also want better insights into my overall health. There is no question that the Garmin Body Battery is better than the Suunto Resources (at least when I compare my S7 to my gf’s Venu, although I appreciate neither are running the latest versions). Sleep tracking is also important to me and the S7 is basic to say the least (although it is very accurate).
The S7 has the best OHR I’ve ever used, but I want the ability to connect a chest HR for times like when the weather is cold and I want to wear sleeves, or ride a bike, or do weights, etc.

I have looked through some of the UA training plans on TP and they look great. Really great. But many of them require running at different pace/HR/etc during activities and without having that live on my wrist I simply won’t be able to follow it. I have tried to do a run based on my HR with the S7 and I spent more time looking at my watch than where I was going (yes, I fell over). It took all of the fun out of the run and I hated it. A device that tells me what I need to do and if I am straying too far from it is essential for me. Whether that be for ultra training or just a general fitness plan.
I could go running without a watch, but I would probably end up stagnating or injured.

I need a plan to keep me on target, but also one that nags me to get out and go and do the right type of run (as i’ve said before, i have a habit of going too far, simply because i love running in the countryside).
A good watch is just a tool to help me achieve the goals I want.
The S7 has helped me enormously since I bought it, but now I am running more seriously with some actual targets I need something that will help me with that.

I really want an S7gen2 to be that watch. I have everything crossed.

suzzlo

Watches don’t run, the only think you need to achieve you goal is to be motivated.

Said that, I have money reserved for my next watch

I run with both Spartan Sport and Garmin 745, and really appreciate different features from them:

design/mobile app/ Stryd integration from Suunto
training plan/structured workouts, some health metrics coming from firstbeat from Garmin

Actually I’m combining with the Humango platform which creates an adaptative training dinamicaly with the 745, and if this could come to Suunto (rumors said that something similar could work with nolio) I will immediately move to new Suunto watch.

As it said, there is no better watch/brand, it’s only about preferences

Enjoy!

@suzzlo said in Suunto 7 Successor:

Watches don’t run

LOL!!!

Jamie BG

@olymay - evelate 4 sensor isn’t that much better than the elevate 3 sensor - slightly better improvement on HIIT, but looks like slightly worse on cycling - still a very new sensor so suspect will improve in time. Main performance boost is on the SPO2 - which is of minimal benefit.

Suggested that F7 will be 2 flavours - touchscreen or solar.

olymay

@jamie-bg said in Suunto 7 Successor:

@olymay - evelate 4 sensor isn’t that much better than the elevate 3 sensor - slightly better improvement on HIIT, but looks like slightly worse on cycling - still a very new sensor so suspect will improve in time. Main performance boost is on the SPO2 - which is of minimal benefit.

Suggested that F7 will be 2 flavours - touchscreen or solar.

Any new hardware will take time to have the software fully optimised, happens with all devices, so I’m sure they will get better and better (once they iron out the inevitable bugs at launch).

The rumours suggest the F7 will be both touchscreen and solar, with there being no Pro option this year (all versions will essentially be the Pro).
I’m not bothered about solar, I won’t be out doing multiday events. But touch for navigating maps is a must (as well as for quickly moving around menus etc, it’s so quick and easy). Having the option to use both during a workout is nice, but buttons win for me.

Ideally I want an upgraded S7, and I am prepared to wait a bit, bit not forever.
This morning I compared the resource and sleep data in my S7 to that in my gf’s Venu. The resource data is essentially useless and tells me nothing, the body battery has so much data regarding recovery, stress, HRV, etc and is genuinely useful. The sleep tracking in the Venu might not be as accurate as the S7, but it is more detailed. I would love that level of detail with the accuracy of the S7.

I am sure Suunto can achieve this level of detail as they clearly have the hardware and the expertise to do it.
If they can package this, along with external sensor support and adaptive training plans into a next gen S7 then I will be all over it.

Is that too much to ask?

Brad_Olwin

@olymay said in Suunto 7 Successor:

the body battery has so much data regarding recovery, stress, HRV, etc and is genuinely useful.

How is this useful? What are you going to do with the data? This is my point, there is already quite a bit of science questioning the value of HRV readings as a predictor. I frankly don’t see how this is useful.

I have a race in 2.5 weeks and workouts that I have planned as well as a short taper. Will those readings matter to me? No! My last two days have been very stressful, we had our first Nationally competitive agility dog become completely paralyzed overnight and had to euthanize him. Is that going to affect my stress? Absolutely, my sleep has not been great and I feel crappy. Will I do my workout? Yes! If I feel great during the workout that is good, if not I may cut it short. Will it matter? Will it affect my race performance? No!

Sorry but this is the point I keep trying to make, the “stuff and fluff” that most consumers want their devices to tell them is not going to help you get fit, lose weight or become more competitive. Those things require commitment and consistency where your daily “feeling and recovery” do not matter.
How YOU feel during your workout matters, not how the watch tells you how you feel. If you want to use HRV effectively, it is a bit more complicated.
https://medium.com/@altini_marco/on-heart-rate-variability-hrv-and-readiness-394a499ed05b
https://medium.com/@altini_marco/the-ultimate-guide-to-heart-rate-variability-hrv-part-4-909b52f71131

@brad_olwin said in Suunto 7 Successor:

My last two days have been very stressful, we had our first Nationally competitive agility dog become completely paralyzed overnight and had to euthanize him.

I’m sorry for your loss. I feel you, four years ago I had to make the same decision

Regarding the “stuff and fluff” part, I fully agree.

olymay

@brad_olwin firstly, I am extremely sorry to hear about your dog. I am a big lover of dogs and had many in the family over the years, I fully understand how much of the family they become.

Stuff and fluff, I like stuff and fluff. And I even find it useful.

I am far from a seasoned athlete and have a long, long way to go before I can rely on my own knowledge and experience to make informed decisions, on my own, about my training.

I want the stuff and fluff mostly as a form of encouragement. So that I can track and see an improvement. Also, on the days when I don’t always feel like going for a run (which at the moment is most days) if the watch is telling me that I am fully charged and ready to go, then I will be more likely get off my ar$e and go.

The more I look into the details of my gf’s body battery from the Venu, the more I like it and the more I can see it is trustworthy. It has predicted her getting a cold 24-36 hours in advance. It reacted to her getting her Covid vaccine (all three of them, and the third was different due to it being a different manufacturer).

How will I use this? I like data and it gives me confidence that I am doing something and making progress. I also like to see the data on recovery and if I should leave it an extra day to rest my legs, or to man up and get out there.

I also want this data to be part of the adaptive training plan. If my last run pushed me a bit hard and my HR was too high, then it can tone it down. Or, if it was too easy then it can step it up slightly and push me a bit more.
If left to my own decisions I will either play it far too safe, or push far too hard (or, as is most likely, swing from one to the other).
I know a few people who have used the Garmin free coach and they all love it for training for a specific target. A number of them also follow the daily recommended runs it suggests and it works well for them (it takes into account the recovery state of your body and adapts accordingly).
I would love this on a Suunto watch.

In a perfect world, I would have a personal trainer who monitor sensors, track my progress, give me tips, plan my workouts, etc. But that is simply not going to happen.
An advanced watch is the closest I am going to get.
I want it to be a Suunto watch, so if they can release something soon (or at least make an announcement) then I will likely buy it.
I MUCH prefer the Suunto software experience to Garmin, and the forums are great (you guys are brilliant, seriously, a massive thank you) so I do not want to go anywhere.

Do I need it all? No. But much of it will definitely benefit me.

Brad_Olwin

@olymay said in Suunto 7 Successor:

The more I look into the details of my gf’s body battery from the Venu, the more I like it and the more I can see it is trustworthy. It has predicted her getting a cold 24-36 hours in advance. It reacted to her getting her Covid vaccine (all three of them, and the third was different due to it being a different manufacturer).

I believe this, these are big stressors and will show up when you become ill.

I also want this data to be part of the adaptive training plan. If my last run pushed me a bit hard and my HR was too high, then it can tone it down. Or, if it was too easy then it can step it up slightly and push me a bit more.
If left to my own decisions I will either play it far too safe, or push far too hard (or, as is most likely, swing from one to the other).
I know a few people who have used the Garmin free coach and they all love it for training for a specific target. A number of them also follow the daily recommended runs it suggests and it works well for them (it takes into account the recovery state of your body and adapts accordingly).
I would love this on a Suunto watch.

An adaptive training plan will not prepare you for racing ultras, in fact, I believe it will worsen your training for ultras. The plans I am aware of are geared toward marathons and shorter races, primarily to improve your pace, which is not going to help you get into ultras.
I’ve said enough here, and I’ve said it over and over again. I won’t comment on this again because what you are looking for from Garmin does not exist. Neither will it exist from Suunto if complex intervals and training plans from 3rd parties are brought to the watch.
There are TrainingPeaks plans that can get you into ultras, they are easy to follow and you do not need a watch to tell you do a 1.5h run today in high zone 1 or low zone 2…….Easy enough to simply do, consistency is what you need and you should not be pushing HR AFAIK given where you are in your training. If you are training above your AeT you are compromising your training.

You can also read this, from an athlete that does an incredible number of hours per year in multiple disciplines. He makes me look like a couch potato. See how he decides effort and recovery, then follow him on Strava and you will see it in action. He lives close by and I’ve bumped into him several times.
https://www.suunto.com/sports/News-Articles-container-page/how-to-mix-it-up-when-you-love-too-many-outdoor-sports/

@brad_olwin said in Suunto 7 Successor:

I believe this, these are big stressors and will show up when you become ill.

very true.

olymay

@brad_olwin the reason I mention the body battery / recourses so much is that I want one that is accurate. The one on my S7 is honestly a novelty at best. It shows a % figure but then gives me very little data as to where it got that from. Yes, it tells me how much times was spent active/inactive/stressed/recovering, but not when any of that was. When something occurs is just as important as to if it occurred. I want to see if I am recovering enough during sleep, or the time sat at my computer working is recovery or stress.

Also, I have taken to completely ignoring the resource figure completely. For example, yesterday I felt great, but but the resource figure was pretty low at wake up (around 20%) and indicated I should be tired and run down. I still went for a 5km run in the afternoon, as I felt good.
Today, I feel like crap (despite getting a better sleep than the night before) yet the resource figure is much higher than yesterday (60% at wake up). I feel tired, and generally meh today (legs feel fine, so I doubt it’s from the short run).

I want a figure that works and tells me what, when, and why.

From what I have seen of the Garmin adaptive plan then it should work very well for me to train for any event, be it a 10K, a half, or an ultra. You can set all manner of parameters to tailor it.

Let’s not forget, the ultra that I want to do is 50km. Just 8km further than a marathon. A baby ultra if you will.
I am not looking to compete at multiday events, or do 100km, or further.
50km.
I have set myself a target of getting there by December this year which should be more than doable (I know three people last year that went from couch to marathon in 4-6 months for the London marathon last year).

I am not an elite athlete, nor do I want to be one. I don’t want to be running 50km every week. I want to do it once to prove that I can. And then, hopefully, maintain a decent level of fitness and distance after that. Maybe do another 50km in the future to batter my time?

Casual runner? Yes. Do I need an elite running watch? No.
But anything that helps me structure my training and adapts to my fitness and how I’m feeling is very much needed. Maybe in a few years when (if) I get enough experience then I will not need this help, but right now I do need this help.

Right now, I cannot follow a training peaks plan that requires me to run at a particular pace or HR, as it means I have to constantly check my watch during the run. This adds a level of stress I do not want or need. I run to relax and escape, worrying about checking my watch defeats that. However, a watch that notifies me if I’m going too fast or slow, or too hard or too easy takes away that worry and means I can just run.

Yesterday, I ran at a comfortable pace and barely looked at my watch. I loved it, had a great time. But upon reviewing the data it’s likely I pushed a bit too hard, if only the watch could have told me this during the run.

I don’t mind what watch does all of this for me (although I would love it to be a Suunto 7gen2) as long as it does everything I want. I’m happy to pay a premium. Change ecosystem. learn new software/hardware. Whatever it takes.

We do seem to have drifted quite a long way from the original topic of this post, and turned into my wish list for a S7gen2 and why I don’t need any of it

Jamie BG

@brad_olwin
I am not training for anything specific, so I am focusing on general health and slow overall increase to fitness, strength and stamina while trying to prevent injuries (due to heavy sport load from a kid to late twenties I have knee, back and some other complications - so have to be careful not to overstrain and injure myself). I find the Garmin system works well for general overall health and fitness.

I mainly focus on 7 Day load which works similar to the Training Peaks - i.e. get an idea of your overall fitness levels and whether increasing and decreasing, load focus (what to do & how intense) and Body Battery (how intense)

This isn’t going to work it you are training for something specifically, but for general fitness,
I find this works well and helps ensure I don’t injure myself (unfortunately doesn’t stop me doing something stupid and injuring myself that way - but at least it isn’t caused from over training) . Every morning before I workout I mainly look at:

7 Day Load - am I in the optimal range, or about to drop out or go over - gives me an idea whether I need to up my activity, go a little bit easier or am I likely to up my optimal band (don’t want to push it too high too fast, am trying to focus on slow steady incremental gains (don’t want to pick up injuries or have too many drops and peaks). Or is it time to push to get the optimal band to move up.
I then look at my load focus - too much/too little low or high aerobic and or anaerobic; and in conjunction with 7DL decide what I will do for the day i.e. if I want to maintain, and low aerobic is out of range will look to do a walk or recovery/base run; or if high required will do a run/cycle/swim and focus intensity to ensure I work in HR zones 2-4 - depending on how much I want to 7DL trend; and if I need anaerobic depending and want to push up to next level then will do a Cardio/HIIT/Sprints etc.
Body Battery - will look at that and how I feel and then look at what I want to do. If its low and I feel low, I am not going to do an anearobic or high activity - will be a recovery exercise, most likely a walk.
Recovery (impacted by stress & sleep & activity) - will check to make sure if cleared if doing a high aerobic especially a VO2max and or anaerobic and see how I feel with BB and own impression.

Health:

Sleep - I suffer from obstructive APNEA (very very bad case, have to use a CPAP) - a quick look at my sleep, and pluse ox readings gives me a very good idea if I had an issue with my mask (sometimes the velcro slips and leaks so you may not get a good night sleep - when this happens sleep metrics and pluse ox show it straight away, and can confirm with CPAP machine readings (have to go into a website to see). First thing in the morning I will not feel it, but will by 2pm, so if I had a bad night, I don’t do anything intense so I can make it through the day without collapsing (in some ways I am still recoverying from chronic fatigue - official diagnoses due to lack of deep sleep for years - due to my Apnea).
BB - as stated use more for training; as my stress during day isn’t the best due to a variety of issues.
Stress - don’t really worry about it during the day - unless I get an alert in which case I do a breathing exercise which really helps. Otherwise use it more for what it is doing overnight - if really bad overnight I know my body is fighting something so I get a heads up that I may be coming down with something, so make sure I don’t do any intense activities that day so body can focus on fighting infection, flu, sinus, cold - whatever the issue is.
RHR - ave HR - if stress overnight is bad, then check these - if these are also outside of norm -then I know something is definitely on the way.
[All 3 covid jabs have impacted Stress, RHR, Ave HR this way for numerous days, and have seen this with the one cold/sniffle I have had, and the one day I suffered from sinuses - due to CPAP machine I don’t wake up with sinus issue, it only comes in 30/40 mins after I take the mask off; and has even given me a headsup on a day I had really bad headaches; and a 24hr tummy bug —> so yes useful to know your day is about to be possibly ruined and to take it easy to give your body more energy to fight - plus can dose myself with honey and lemon- find that helps to reduce it).
I track my weight, steps, calories (integrates with MFP) including Carb, Fat and Protein (am jealous with that breakdown by activity that suunto now provides - would like to see that on Garmin).

So overall it has helped me become fitter, stronger, more stamina - hasn’t caused any injuries despite my dodgy backs and knees (my broken ribs was due to my stupidity not my training), and it has improved my sleep habits - improved when I go to sleep, how long I go to sleep and along with my CPAP mask improved my deep sleep (it is not easy to get used to sleeping with a CPAP mask - I am 19months in and it still feels very strange - I doubt it will ever become second nature). And while I haven’t lost a load of weight, I am not flabby and I have lost 2 inches on my waist and have had to buy t-shirts, shirts and jackets as my shoulders have extended yet again (fortunately managed to keep neck in check).

Looking back on 2021 compared to 2020 I more than doubled the distance and hours I have worked out, and managed to be active on 277 days despite being in pain for 2 months with broken ribs.
So while all the science may not be 100% right it is giving me the motivation and certainly seems to be working for as it does for loads of others.

Would it work for a serious athlete or someone training for a specific event - no, but there are still components they can use. Just like there are components that suunto provides that are very useable not matter what your purpose is.

Jamie BG

@olymay
“Right now, I cannot follow a training peaks plan that requires me to run at a particular pace or HR, as it means I have to constantly check my watch during the run. This adds a level of stress I do not want or need. I run to relax and escape, worrying about checking my watch defeats that. However, a watch that notifies me if I’m going too fast or slow, or too hard or too easy takes away that worry and means I can just run.”

And this is one of the things I love about my Garmin - you set up a workout and designate the target i.e. HR stay in zones 2-3. When you launch it you get an additional screen with your normal screens - a target screen which just shows a red, green, red gauge - so its easy to see when you are on target or off it, and if you set audio prompts and have a connected headset to your watch you will be told to increase when below target or decrease when above target - so you literally can just run without having to look at the watch. Find it super useful when focusing on cadence and or HR zones.

lexterm77

@jamie-bg

Out of curiosity I tried pro 80/20endurance hm training on TP and their pro maintenance training and in 10 years since I started training, I have never seen my HR go 30bpm or a 265W lap at 135bpm with 0% drift in 60minutes. Consistency, severe case of OCD and volume is essential.

cosme.costa

@jamie-bg IF works for you you should use it, more in your case that you have some pathologies and you have found a tool that help you to deal with them.

IMHO most of these features doesn’t give any or much value but well, its my opinion. I have changed my 7 field screen in the watch for a five field because I didn’t need to deal with more information while training or racing. I have a Garmin bike computer and some of the metrics aren’t useful at all some are a good idea but doesn’t work well or aren’t reliable.

You say that the watch helped you to be motivated but I think it is more involved to the body chemistry of doing exercise, to start doing exercise you need some motivation but once started with some consistency our body frees some hormones that helps us to keep up and continue doing exercise.

BTW, I do not know in the S7 but in the Spartan and S5/S9’s you can set targets (pace zones, HR zones, power zones), and the watch will tell you if you are over or under. You can also set time or distance targets and the watch will tell you when you have reached half of the target and the end of it.