Suunto ZoneSense

[flo7z]

@Brad_Olwin
Hi,
On one hand I understand this and this is why I am trying to see how I can “translate” the aerobic work (indicated by HR zone 2) into the ZS area.
On the other hand, when I see at my data, except for big fatigue and heat, my HR is quite constant. Same if you listen to pro marathon runners, their heart rate is the same at +/- 1 or 2.
I feel ZS is a great tool, we just need a bit more experience and maybe some more guidance based upon experience.
Even though I watched all great Suunto videos on the subject, I still miss something to use ZS in my training, without watching the HR.

[2b2bff]

@flo7z simply put - as I understand it - HR zones are not static but will shift up and down depending on your current condition. ZoneSense takes that into account.
So if you wanna train “classical Zone 2”, you use the green ZoneSense zone. If you wanna go harder use the yellow or red accordingly.

[Brad_Olwin]

@flo7z This is the point! Just because your HR is constant does not mean your fatigue is constant. The reason to use ZS is to measure effort in real time. Too many think that HR zones are set in stone. Before ZS I knew my HR would change depending on workouts done prior and how I felt. But I had no idea how much my HR zones could change. ZS matches my RPE very well. Since watching all videos and reading the peer-reviewed scientific manuscripts on ZS (I am a Professor of Molecular and Cellular Biology) I trust ZS for my training and trust RPE more than before. On off days I would think it was my mental state but now I know it was likely fatigue.

[dankcushions]

used zonesense for the first time today and enjoyed it! i think aside from anything else it’s nice having activity categorized simply as aerobic, anaerobic, and vo2 max, as that’s the core of endurance training and i feel like heart rate zones/RPE get a bit abstract and have unnecessary graduations.

a few questions:

from the faq

There is an analysis feature with ZoneSense where Suunto App defines the aerobic and an-aerobic threshold as heartrate with the DDFA. This analysis maps the heartrate to the ZoneSense DDFA index shifts cross aerobic and an-aerobic thresholds. To get a result from this analysis, the athlete needs to do a workout where intensity is tough and challenging. The intensity needs to grow from aerobic area to an-aerobic level, to get the aerobic threshold as a heartrate result. Similarly, to get the an-aerobic threshold, the athlete needs to do a workout that will have intensity in vo2max range.

do i need to do anything to register these intensity workouts? or is it just a matter of continuing my running with my heart rate belt + zone sense, and once i hit some appropriate sessions in my training, zonesense will update my internal ‘profile’ and get ‘better’ at assigning zones during activity?

ZoneSense maps changes as aerobic and an-aerobic thresholds to corresponding heart rate values. Sudden changes in intensity can introduce errors, so it is best to consider several workouts before setting heart rate zones in your Suunto watch.

I realise ZoneSense is not the same as heartrate zones, but it does seem like it would be a good way to inform your heartrate zones (eg, for use in non-zonesense appropriate sessions like short intervals, etc). So is there a way to get that collected data from all my zonesense activities? eg:

• Aerobic BPM range 90-160
• Anaerobic BPM range 150-170
• VO2 max BPM range (160-190)
  (I would expect these zones to overlap given the nature of zonesense over multiple actvivities)

From those ranges, I could personalize my heartrate zones.

[flo7z]

@dankcushions hi, about your last point ; I asked the same kind of question 5 days ago in this same thread.
Since HR evolves depending on your fatigue, the conditions and many other factors, you cannot draw a clear line between HR and ZS.

[dankcushions]

@flo7z said in Suunto ZoneSense:

@dankcushions hi, about your last point ; I asked the same kind of question 5 days ago in this same thread.
Since HR evolves depending on your fatigue, the conditions and many other factors, you cannot draw a clear line between HR and ZS.

yea i read that conversation i realise HR is not ZS but that’s not what i’m saying. with ZS you can say when your body is doing (say) aerobic exercise, and that means that we can do some useful stuff with other datapoints we gather within those zones.

like if i could the see the upper and lower bounds of HR that was taking place when i was doing activity that ZS has assessed as aerobic, then that is far more useful info than ‘zone 2 is 65-75% of max heart rate’ or whatever the existing HR range algorithms do.

it might be the range is too wide to be useful, but with some basic statistical analysis it could be made useful for sure. you could taper the end of the heart rate measurements (to avoid ZS ‘lag’), remove outlier results (to avoid fatigue days, etc). perhaps favour more recent results to account for the ZS alg ‘learning’.

that to me could be a much better/alternative. way of establishing heart rate ranges than existing methods. could do similar stuff with pace etc.

[andrewjknox]

Hi guys,

I’ve used a chest strap on a few of my runs now and the data appeared to be okay based on what I was seeing in the graph.

Not so sure after todays run? I was doing a guided run, intervals with 8 minute walk / 3 minute walk.

Any ideas? This an app issue, readings from the HR belt issue, or watch issue?

Thanks!

[Brad_Olwin]

@andrewjknox all walk so should be aerobic. If 8 min run, how hard?

[Brad_Olwin]

I did a Steady State Interval run yesterday. 3x10 min SSR with 5 min Recovery. ZS worked very well on a Vertical. Rare that my zones match up this well so I was not fatigued. And yes, I bit too hard for steady state…should have stayed in the yellow but I was running by RPE and did not have live ZS running.

[andrewjknox]

@Brad_Olwin Aye, it’ll come down to aerobic as expected but the lines are horizontal like it’s missing data?

I’ve shown a run from Wednesday (graph as expected) which was actually the same workout - I’m pretty unfit at the minute, had surgery recently so easing back - my fitness has fallen off a cliff

[Brad_Olwin]

@andrewjknox I was not looking carefully enough! The flat lines are either lost HR data or some bizarre HR lock…Make sure the belt is wet, it should not record the data if data are poor. Maybe the app did a bizarre calculation, you could try force quitting the app.

[andrewjknox]

@Brad_Olwin I initially thought that too but it was recording heart rate data? That’s the background comparison graph in my image. Assume the HRV is just a separate stream of data from the belt that didn’t get picked up?

[Brad_Olwin]

@andrewjknox I’ve never seen this!

[Danny poleg]

The topic may have been asked but I did not find a reference, although there is a reference to determining heart rate zons.
The question is this - at the end of the workout, the zonesense data on the watch is not the same as the data in the app.
I am attaching two pictures - I would be happy to receive assistance in understanding the topic.
Thank you to anyone who helps.

[Stephen Kenny]

It’s a much-talked-about problem; in my opinion, many do not trust zone sense because of this. I intuitively believe that the APP data is accurate and the watch data is not. Others, the reverse. The value proposition for Zone Sense is the real-time watch data so they need to fix this for product credibility.

[andrewjknox]

@Brad_Olwin I’m going to put this down to the fault of the chest-strap so bad data in, bad data out. I’ve included screenshots of the R-R intervals under HRV in Runalyze:

Bad data:

Good data:

Thanks for having a look!

[Ghost]

@Stephen-Kenny I find that really weird because, in my case, the values on the watch and in the app are exactly the same.

[Brad_Olwin]

@andrewjknox Now I know that you can flat line ZS with bad data. The fabric part of HR belts does not last forever. Mine give up after a year or a bit more.

[SirMcKey]

@andrewjknox Dear Andrew,

I observed such results too. After lots of trials I came to the following conclusion: ZoneSense allways works proper with my Suunto vertical. BUT: Suunto app shows ZoneSense data correct if HR-data is above 120 bpm during exercise. Maybe you have the same topic?
Have an nice sunday !

[andrewjknox]

@Brad_Olwin Nice, hopefully others will find it useful when they see chest-straps can generate bad data when the materials start to fail and the ZS graph can look “funky”. I knew there was a risk of the internals getting compromised once you change the battery and damage the rubber ring/seal/gasket (which has happened to me (twice) - the battery life then takes a nosedive, you then start changing batteries more and more often).

Went for the same run this morning and it was okay oddly.

But I’ve ordered the Garmin HRM 200 - mainly because of the battery indicator I’d like to have a bit more heads-up when the battery is dying without having to check in-app (Suunto watches don’t have a sensor battery warning do they?)