[Vertical 2, 2.53.42] Map and Navigation features are greatly improved but there are still a lot of old issues and also new bugs introduced in the latest update

[sky-runner]

Warning: long post with a lot of screenshots!

Let me start by saying that I am really thankful for a few great improvements, which bring the watch closer to what I’d consider an ideal watch for trail ultrarunning.

But after only a single long mountain run with my shiny new Vertical 2 I’ve already observed so many issues and I think I may have forgotten about some of them. Many of these issues are old and I’ve already reported them in this forum, but there are some surprising new bugs.

Let’s start with the route:

This was double crossing of a local mountain and I placed two waypoints - one at the highest point and one at the turnaround. The first waypoint shows up at two distances - one the way out and on the way back! Thank you very much for fixing this issue. That is great.

[BUG] The second waypoint at the turnaround point has also doubled. No matter how I tried, I couldn’t make it a single waypoint. Under magnification it shows as two waypoints that are 3 feet (1 meter) apart, and as we’ll see later that will cause the problem with the climb guidance elevation profile zooming:

Now, let’s look at Climb Guidance zoom levels:
[Zoom level 4] - most zoomed out - the entire elevation profile:

[BUG: Zoom levels 3 and 2] - supposed to show 3 and 2 segments, but because the second waypoint has doubled, both of these zoom levels show the same part of the profile. Normally at the zoom level 3 I’d expect to see 3 segments, for example from the beginning to the 3rd waypoint and the top of the second climb, but that isn’t available

[Zoom level 1] - shows one segment to the nearest waypoint. Also notice that the distance shown at the bottom is to the corresponding waypoint - 1st, 2nd, or 3rd from the current position, which is a really useful feature during racing. This almost like having Garmin Up Ahead feature (minus waypoint names):

[NEW BUG: Zoom level 0] This show the Climb Guidance v1 for a single climb. It is great that we can now zoom into to a single climb, but the remaining climb (in meters or feet) is no longer shown. That used to be shown at the bottom, but that is now obscured by the new customizable fields. Do we really need to see the elapsed time on this screen? How about showing the finished / remaining climb instead. Also, how about making that distance at the bottom a bit larger to make it consistent with other zoom levels?

[FEATURE REQUEST] Please consider showing waypoint names at the zoom levels 1-4.

[ANNOYANCE] OFF ROUTE detection is overly sensitive. Here is an example, I stepped off the route just 100 feet, which is 30 meters, and already it went off. The maps are often imperfect, so this off-route is going to be triggered more than it should.

Also, the elevation profile zoom gets disabled when in OFF ROUTE mode. We can still see the profile but not zoom it:

Since it shows the distance to the nearest point on the the route, how about continuing showing that closest on-route point on the elevation profile and allowing the profile to be zoomed. That would at least handle the situations when someone is just slightly off route because the map wasn’t very accurate or because took a slightly alternative trail that is supposed to merge back, which is not that uncommon.

[OLD BUG] Navigation arrows get rendered behind the breadcrumbs track when retracing the path and may often be invisible. There are situations where this may be a critical issue. This was reported a year and half ago.

[NEW BUG] Here on the second climb the climb guidance got completely confused and it shows me as descending while in fact I am in the middle of the second climb and keep climbing:

Here is a screenshot of the overall profile taken at the same time:

It is interesting that as I kept climbing and moving towards top of the second climb, the distance remaining on the previous screenshot (the one showing me descending) kept getting smaller as if I was making the progress toward the bottom of the descent. That is definitely messed up. This didn’t get corrected until I reached the top of the climb.

[OLD BUG] At the end of the route, not all climb guidance zoom levels were available.

Here I have one more waypoint ahead of me before the end of the route, so I’d expect to be able to use zoom levels 1 and 2 (see the picture). But in reality, when I zoom out from the zoom level 1 it goes straight to the overall profile at zoom level 4. In other words, the zoom level 2 and 3 may be available only in the beginning of a route but not at the very end. This would be a significant issue during a longer ultramarathon race. In this case the entire distance was 20 miles (32 km) so the overall profile is still usable, but imagine the horizontal space covering 100 km or 160 km?
This issue is covered in more details in the following thread:
https://forum.suunto.com/topic/13601/climb-guidance-2.0-issue-not-all-zoom-levels-are-available-at-the-end-of-the-route-see-picture/20

[slash1111]

@sky-runner said in [Vertical 2, 2.53.42] Map and Navigation features are greatly improved but there are still a lot of old issues and also new bugs introduced in the latest update:

[NEW BUG] Here on the second climb the climb guidance got completely confused and it shows me as descending while in fact I am in the middle of the second climb and keep climbing:

Here is a screenshot of the overall profile taken at the same time:

It is interesting that as I kept climbing and moving towards top of the second climb, the distance remaining on the previous screenshot (the one showing me descending) kept getting smaller as if I was making the progress toward the bottom of the descent. That is definitely messed up. This didn’t get corrected until I reached the top of the climb.

Hi, today I’ve experienced something similar, but with the Vertical (1, FW 2.50.28) and the “older” Climb Guidance.
I ran one hill up and down. In the route planner I had set waypoint at the top of the hill. When I was running up everything was fine (in the Guidance I’ve zoomed to the next Waypoint - to the top). I’ve reached the top and on the way down the Navigation showed correct direction but the Guidance was still showing the ascent, not the following descent, and my position on the climb was going backwards. The Guidance changed to the correct profile when I was some 150m away from that section.
Your route was all out-and-back and that seems to be a problem for the guidance…

[Squirrel]

And also notice these artifacts

[dreamer_]

Thank you so much for this very nice post @sky-runner .
Considering the very nice post, If you don’t mind, I’ll add these 3 things that are more improvements/feature requests than bugs and just to have everything related to Climb Guidance with photos in the same thread.

1.- Published by you a year ago @sky-runner Navigation with waypoints
This is so important…When you go to a very long ultra race, the very first thing we usually study is the profile of that race.

The Coros implementation you referenced can be improved with what did Amazfit. This shot:

As you can see, is much cleaner setting the colors of the climbs and changing the waypoint icons Coros used, with just white dots. Nothing more, clean and perfect.
This is important because in a very long run, those icons Coros has can overlap.

2.- Profile between checkpoints or AID stations

This image resumes:

• Profile between Checkpoint (AID Station) 7 and Checkpoint (AID Station) 8:
• Positive and negative meters remaining between both checkpoints
• Climbs between both checkpoints.

This is very important because in a long race what we usually do is segmentation between AID stations. We do want to know at which part of that segment we are and how much is remaining (positive and negative meters) to the next checkpoint. As explained in more detail in the referenced thread, this has a lot more sense that knowing in which climb we are of a very large number of remaining climbs.

---

3.- Somehow related, and for a watch that has a Climb Guidance feature, this should be considered as a bug-improvement:
Altitude navigation

This screen:

Should be more similar to 1. Climb colors and waypoints should be there for the watches that support Climb Guidance.

[stromdiddily]

1. This is a phenomenal post. Thank you for taking the time to detail these and hopefully they’re in line to get addressed!

2. I used to live about 20 minutes from that route and miss those types of runs so much. What an awesome run that must have been this time of the year.

[Joaquin]

@dreamer_ Thank you for the detailed feedback and for taking the time to share these ideas.

Since the last update, Climb Guidance 3.0 already offers three different zoom approaches that address several of the use cases you mentioned. You can also see this behaviour demonstrated in the video shared in the thread. In all cases, the final zoom level always focuses on the current climb segment.

Segment based zoom
This mode shows the full elevation profile of the route while allowing you to zoom directly into the current climb segment. It provides context of the entire route while keeping the focus on the climb you are currently tackling.

Waypoint based zoom
When waypoints are added to the route, the system automatically segments the profile between those waypoints. The zoom view can display up to the next four upcoming waypoints and the final zoom level always focuses on the current climb segment. In this view you can clearly see ascent, descent, distance, altitude and any customised metric in the lower data field.

Distance based zoom
The profile can also be explored using distance based zoom levels such as the next 10 km, 5 km or 500 m. As with the other modes, the final zoom level always focuses on the active climb segment.

Regarding the comparison with other implementations, it is worth noting that many solutions simply highlight climbs and descents without true segmentation or contextual zoom levels. While Climb Guidance can certainly continue to evolve, the current implementation already provides a very detailed and structured view of the elevation profile.

From my experience testing climb guidance implementations across many different devices and platforms, Suunto’s current approach, while not perfect, is by far the most complete solution available today. It provides a level of segmentation, contextual zoom and information density that other implementations simply do not offer while still maintaining excellent readability during long activities. In real world use, especially during ultras or long mountain efforts, this balance between clarity and depth of information makes a very significant difference.

[dreamer_]

@Joaquin thank you so much for taking you time for the very detailed post. This is so nice…
I just need further testing because for the trail runner, this changes things (by a lot).

[Joaquin]

@dreamer_ I’m really happy to see you here. You’re a very discerning user and I truly appreciate that you also take the time to recognize the positive things. That kind of balanced feedback is very valuable for us.

Please don’t hesitate to reach out to me privately anytime if you have comments, ideas, or suggestions. I would genuinely appreciate it, and I’m always happy to pass them directly to our team. Your input is truly valued.

[dreamer_]

@Joaquin said in [Vertical 2, 2.53.42] Map and Navigation features are greatly improved but there are still a lot of old issues and also new bugs introduced in the latest update:

@dreamer_ I’m really happy to see you here. You’re a very discerning user and I truly appreciate that you also take the time to recognize the positive things. That kind of balanced feedback is very valuable for us.

Please don’t hesitate to reach out to me privately anytime if you have comments, ideas, or suggestions. I would genuinely appreciate it, and I’m always happy to pass them directly to our team. Your input is truly valued.

Thank you so much @joaquin . I’m quite impressed about how much Suunto has improved the software from the previous generation. Really nice work