Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands

[sky-runner]

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos said in Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands:

While there is an literal obsession with this subject on your side

Because Suunto 9 Baro total ascent calculation is really bad. It is an outlier when compared to all other watches, and that is something that really frustrated me, up to the point that I sold my year-and-half old S9B and moved to another watch.

Here is an example of what I mean. Here is the data that I collected by looking at Strava Flybys on activities recorded during 2019 and 2020 Bridle Trails Winter Trail Running Festival. This race is on moderate runnable rolling terrain. The festival races consist of multiple 5 mile loops - 1 to 6 loops depending on the distance. I looked at each activity on Strava and divided it on the number of loops. The table below shows total ascent in feet per loop, per device. All of these devices have barometers so I assumed the numbers on Strava match the ascent produced by each device, and I grouped ascents from all non-barometric devices in the bottom:

Suunto 9: 310, 295, 306, 310
Ambit 3 Peak: 406, 399, 377


Fenix 6: 366
Fenix 5: 368, 381, 360, 364, 338, 346, 347


Fenix 3: 373, 382, 367, 346


Fenix 2: 424
FR 935: 357, 351, 371, 365, 350
FR 920XT: 379
Non-Baro (Strava): 435, 313, 350, 326, 306, 302, 323, 335, 331, 346, 298, 321, 315, 330, 330, 328, 334, 307

Don’t you agree that Suunto 9 is a clear outlier? Do you think that Suunto 9 results are correct and all others, including A3P, are wrong? I don’t understand why Suunto doesn’t see that as a problem.

I did similar comparisons for other races in which I participated and the results were similar - Suunto 9 is always an outlier on the low end. Since a lot of my running is on a rolling terrain like that, Suunto 9 had consistently low-balled my total ascent by 10-20%.

[stromdiddily]

The glaring bit of evidence for me is if you compare S9B vs non Sony Suuntos. Either every other non Sony equipped Suunto is overstating the value or the S9 values are understated. Just ran a 10mi loop on rolling terrain w my cousin who has a Spartan Sport. Distances were exactly the same (which is super impressive in itself), he had over 100 ft more of climbing than me.

Outside of using ascent/altitude values in races to gage amount of climbs left, this really isn’t that big of a deal. Runalyze takes care of this problem and A3P vs S9B come in about the same after the correction is applied there.

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@sky-runner as you wish to say and believe. But that is not correct as the same software that calculates ascent runs on all models.of SUUNTO the same way.

So changing one would exactly change all. The only added difference on the s9 is recent fused alti retry of multiple times late spring I think.

The same conversation with your previous profile still exists and I advice for the sake of all.of us to continue there, instead of "hijacking ". It gets too clustered to even someone to collect some proper feedback.

Kind reminder as well: If you think that the s9 (or anyone here) measures too low, it’s difficult from this forum to change all the stuff at suunto regarding ascent. So the reminder is about that in the end it’s us just fighting over our opinions and breaking our heads who is right or wrong.

[stromdiddily]

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos said in Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands:

@sky-runner as you wish to say and believe. But that is not correct as the same software that calculates ascent runs on all models.of SUUNTO the same way.

Interesting, I thought it would differ based on firmware use. I stand corrected.

[fazel]

So, I’m supposed to run 21 miles of hilly trails on Saturday. Should I wear the Ambit3 Peak and the 9 Baro? Has anyone done a direct comparison?

[freeheeler]

@fazel
yes, before I gave my A3PS to a good friend and before (!) the S9B firmware has been updated to improve the alti summary if I remember correct.
please keep us updated!

[Fenr1r]

@fazel

Should I wear the Ambit3 Peak and the 9 Baro?

Absolutely.

Has anyone done a direct comparison?

On those “21 miles of hilly trails”? Probably not.

I’m sure you can post a detailed analysis. Monday morning will do. Or by noon. Go easy on yourself.

[fazel]

@Fenr1r “Hilly” for me. I think we are doing just under three loops. The 50K is four full loops and 4900’ according to the Ambit when I wore it for the race.

https://www.strava.com/activities/1434473944/overview

Okay @Fenr1r @TELE-HO I’ll plan on wearing both watches.

[Brad_Olwin]

Sorry all @stromdiddily @sky-runner @fazel @TELE-HO @Oktan @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos , I would like this to end… I find NO differences between A3P, S7 and S9B. Here ya go, a SkiMo and a Trail Run.
SkiMo

Trail Run : A3P and S9B had FusedAlti kick in as you can see.

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@Brad_Olwin me too. Thanks buddy. This is much appreciated

[stromdiddily]

@Brad_Olwin the “issue” isn’t with bigger/distinguished climbs.

Same day, just over 5 mile route on rolling type terrain…22% difference in altitude.

[Brad_Olwin]

@stromdiddily said in Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands:

@Brad_Olwin the “issue” isn’t with bigger/distinguished climbs.

Same day, just over 5 mile route on rolling type terrain…22% difference in altitude.

I often compare my altitude gain with corrections in TrainingPeaks, which I find highly accurate. I do not see this problem with my S9B as you can see below for runs with little altitude gain…I have dozens of these runs too if not hundreds. In fact, I find the S9B overestimates altitude gains on low altitude runs.

[stromdiddily]

@Brad_Olwin your experience does not match my own. But I will leave this topic here.

May “missing” elevation be the worst of our problems in 2021

[Brad_Olwin]

@stromdiddily said in Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands:

@Brad_Olwin your experience does not match my own. But I will leave this topic here.

May “missing” elevation be the worst of our problems in 2021

My point from your last post was the A3P may not be providing the “correct” altitude gain/loss for comparison. I agree that larger gains/losses typically are more accurate for me and the low altitude runs are substantially more variable. However, when comparing with correction algorithms I find the watches are overestimating more often than underestimating. Altitude is tough to get correct and my benchmarks when running or on skis is to compare the actual summit altitude with the watch, the watches are often quite close. As has been discussed before, clothing, wind, and I suspect arm movements affect the calculations and the sensor. In my experience none of the Suunto watches I have are different from each other. My only other comparison is with an Apple Watch and I found excellent agreement with gain/loss on Apple Watches compared to Suunto. I can post a large number of those comparisons too.

On a final note, many of you know I field test for Suunto. This is part of the field testing and many testers compare more than one brand. Based on what I know and what I have observed from my experience and others I don’t believe there is a consistent problem here with watches that have barometers. The GPS altitude watches are another story and I have a different opinion there.

[fazel]

@Brad_Olwin how are you running both watches? Pairing and unpairing in Suunto App? I’m still likely to run with both watches to satisfy my own curiosity. Nice “hill” repeats

[Brad_Olwin]

@fazel said in Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands:

@Brad_Olwin how are you running both watches? Pairing and unpairing in Suunto App? I’m still likely to run with both watches to satisfy my own curiosity. Nice “hill” repeats

Thanks @fazel!. I run often with 2, 3 or 4 watches. Two on one arm, one on one wrist and holding one or one under a hat. I connect/disconnect all to SA on one iPhone and delete all duplicates. I have my exercises set to private so they post only when I have edited those out I am not keeping…daily routine of a tester…

[fazel]

@Brad_Olwin Thank you!

[Brad_Olwin]

@fazel said in Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands:

@Brad_Olwin Thank you!

Sure, sometimes not all that much fun when I am hitting the lap button on 2 watches. Today I used S7 and S9B for hill repeats lap button on S7 and testing S9B SuuntoPlus Climb, which lags behind a bit unfortunately. Here is altitude, HR (both on OHR, S7 is better but not perfect) and Stryd watts. S7 OHR lagged on the first and 3rd intervals, S9 OHR too high at the beginning. Watts were good!
Workout after warm up: 1 mi uphill, 0.75 mi downhill, 2 min rest, 0.75 mi uphill, 0.5 mi downhill, 2 min rest, 0.5 mi uphill, 1 mi downhill, 2min rest and cool down.

[fazel]

@Brad_Olwin holy moly. I checked some runs on TP after I read your first reply of the day and noticed the corrections look staggered some. I’m wondering if you’ve ever seen that? I was thinking it might have something to do with using the Stryd for distance and the watch drawing the GPS track on top of it?

Like this…

[Brad_Olwin]

@fazel FusedAlti will continuously correct so the staggered start is likely getting the altitude dialed in, I often see the same and you can see that in my post from TP here. I tend not to worry about it too much. My experience with Stryd for distance is not great, way short on trails. All of my posts here are trails, I do all my interval training on trails (sometimes wide and flat or wide and hilly like today) but hardly ever pavement. If your Stryd is accurate that may not be a bad idea. I have my Stryd paired as a powerpod only. If you pair as a footpod, the Stryd distance, pace and cadence will override the GPS data. Make sure you set auto calibration to off in the footpod menu or it will mess up the Stryd metrics for distance and pace.

Edited per your photo…I have never seen this! That does not look good. Do you have pause or auto pause on? I see breaks in the corrected.