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    Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Suunto 9
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    • freeheelerF Offline
      freeheeler @isazi
      last edited by

      @isazi
      with Android I remember that real cracks did root their devices… 🙊

      living sideways

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      • fazelF Offline
        fazel Bronze Member
        last edited by

        My personal opinion is transparency goes a long way. @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos explanations provide context and through that - understanding. It is clear total ascent values are tricky and it would be easier for Suunto to make every decision in favor of greater accumulated gain as this would make all of us feel better about our efforts. It appears they’ve instead chosen to make every decision with the goal of being as accurate as possible. They deserve credit for taking the harder road IMO.

        sartoricS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 6
        • sartoricS Offline
          sartoric Moderator @fazel
          last edited by sartoric

          @fazel said in Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands:

          this would make all of us feel better about our efforts.

          Unfortunately this is what “modern athletes” want from sport watches/platform … showing that they have it bigger 😁
          Very low percentage of “athletes” do sports for their own satisfaction nowadays 🙂

          SVTS - 2.40.38
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          OktanO 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 4
          • OktanO Offline
            Oktan @sartoric
            last edited by

            @sartoric isnt satisfaction goes bigger when you got, hmmm, bigger?

            Suunto 9 Baro Titanium & Ambit 3 Peak

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            • sky-runnerS Offline
              sky-runner Silver Members @freeheeler
              last edited by sky-runner

              @TELE-HO said in Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands:

              who proofs that Garmin is calculating the total ascent “more correct” in all different possible use cases?

              The proof is very easy to get - just open the elevation profile generated from an activity and add all the climbs manually - that isn’t difficult at all. When I did that in the past I ignored all small elevation changes less than 3 meters, but even then Suunto 9 was often short on total ascent compared to its own elevation profile.

              Dimitrios KanellopoulosD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote -1
              • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @sky-runner
                last edited by Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

                @sky-runner that is not proof. We could enable to the the hand flux of 1meter. We have a 3meter threshold and that’s it. That’s what most good services use such as runalyze as mentioned before.

                We do data analysis here giving correct values.

                I even went and explained with pics and what ? Did you see what all databases reported for this users examples with the different thresholds ?

                While there is an literal obsession with this subject on your side , I am not sure why over and over I have to explain how things work.

                Like Hellllloooo @sky-runner !

                Did you even read the post with the thresholds , what other services use (digital elevation databases ) etc or what ? Came to say the same thing without helping ?

                What’s up? Is this about you being right ? What’s the problem here ? Trying to enforce SUUNTO to do it the way you want it for your self ? Doesn’t Garmin do it as you like ?

                I do t get you anymore. Sorry over and out.

                Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                Creator of Quantified-Self.io
                youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

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                • sky-runnerS Offline
                  sky-runner Silver Members
                  last edited by sky-runner

                  @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos said in Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands:

                  While there is an literal obsession with this subject on your side

                  Because Suunto 9 Baro total ascent calculation is really bad. It is an outlier when compared to all other watches, and that is something that really frustrated me, up to the point that I sold my year-and-half old S9B and moved to another watch.

                  Here is an example of what I mean. Here is the data that I collected by looking at Strava Flybys on activities recorded during 2019 and 2020 Bridle Trails Winter Trail Running Festival. This race is on moderate runnable rolling terrain. The festival races consist of multiple 5 mile loops - 1 to 6 loops depending on the distance. I looked at each activity on Strava and divided it on the number of loops. The table below shows total ascent in feet per loop, per device. All of these devices have barometers so I assumed the numbers on Strava match the ascent produced by each device, and I grouped ascents from all non-barometric devices in the bottom:

                  Suunto 9: 310, 295, 306, 310
                  Ambit 3 Peak: 406, 399, 377


                  Fenix 6: 366
                  Fenix 5: 368, 381, 360, 364, 338, 346, 347


                  Fenix 3: 373, 382, 367, 346


                  Fenix 2: 424
                  FR 935: 357, 351, 371, 365, 350
                  FR 920XT: 379
                  Non-Baro (Strava): 435, 313, 350, 326, 306, 302, 323, 335, 331, 346, 298, 321, 315, 330, 330, 328, 334, 307

                  Don’t you agree that Suunto 9 is a clear outlier? Do you think that Suunto 9 results are correct and all others, including A3P, are wrong? I don’t understand why Suunto doesn’t see that as a problem.

                  I did similar comparisons for other races in which I participated and the results were similar - Suunto 9 is always an outlier on the low end. Since a lot of my running is on a rolling terrain like that, Suunto 9 had consistently low-balled my total ascent by 10-20%.

                  Dimitrios KanellopoulosD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                  • stromdiddilyS Offline
                    stromdiddily Gold Members
                    last edited by stromdiddily

                    The glaring bit of evidence for me is if you compare S9B vs non Sony Suuntos. Either every other non Sony equipped Suunto is overstating the value or the S9 values are understated. Just ran a 10mi loop on rolling terrain w my cousin who has a Spartan Sport. Distances were exactly the same (which is super impressive in itself), he had over 100 ft more of climbing than me.

                    Outside of using ascent/altitude values in races to gage amount of climbs left, this really isn’t that big of a deal. Runalyze takes care of this problem and A3P vs S9B come in about the same after the correction is applied there.

                    Always carry a flaggon of whiskey for snakebite; and furthermore, always carry a small snake.

                    User of pretty much every watch since the Ambit 3 Peak. Now back in the family w SV :)

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                    • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                      Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @sky-runner
                      last edited by Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

                      @sky-runner as you wish to say and believe. But that is not correct as the same software that calculates ascent runs on all models.of SUUNTO the same way.

                      So changing one would exactly change all. The only added difference on the s9 is recent fused alti retry of multiple times late spring I think.

                      The same conversation with your previous profile still exists and I advice for the sake of all.of us to continue there, instead of "hijacking ". It gets too clustered to even someone to collect some proper feedback.

                      Kind reminder as well: If you think that the s9 (or anyone here) measures too low, it’s difficult from this forum to change all the stuff at suunto regarding ascent. So the reminder is about that in the end it’s us just fighting over our opinions and breaking our heads who is right or wrong.

                      Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                      Creator of Quantified-Self.io
                      youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                      https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                      https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

                      stromdiddilyS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                      • stromdiddilyS Offline
                        stromdiddily Gold Members @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
                        last edited by

                        @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos said in Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands:

                        @sky-runner as you wish to say and believe. But that is not correct as the same software that calculates ascent runs on all models.of SUUNTO the same way.

                        Interesting, I thought it would differ based on firmware use. I stand corrected.

                        Always carry a flaggon of whiskey for snakebite; and furthermore, always carry a small snake.

                        User of pretty much every watch since the Ambit 3 Peak. Now back in the family w SV :)

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                        • fazelF Offline
                          fazel Bronze Member
                          last edited by

                          So, I’m supposed to run 21 miles of hilly trails on Saturday. Should I wear the Ambit3 Peak and the 9 Baro? Has anyone done a direct comparison?

                          freeheelerF Fenr1rF 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                          • freeheelerF Offline
                            freeheeler @fazel
                            last edited by

                            @fazel
                            yes, before I gave my A3PS to a good friend and before (!) the S9B firmware has been updated to improve the alti summary if I remember correct.
                            please keep us updated!

                            living sideways

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                            • Fenr1rF Offline
                              Fenr1r @fazel
                              last edited by

                              @fazel

                              Should I wear the Ambit3 Peak and the 9 Baro?

                              Absolutely.

                              Has anyone done a direct comparison?

                              On those “21 miles of hilly trails”? Probably not.

                              I’m sure you can post a detailed analysis. Monday morning will do. Or by noon. Go easy on yourself.

                              fazelF 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 1
                              • fazelF Offline
                                fazel Bronze Member @Fenr1r
                                last edited by

                                @Fenr1r “Hilly” for me. I think we are doing just under three loops. The 50K is four full loops and 4900’ according to the Ambit when I wore it for the race.

                                https://www.strava.com/activities/1434473944/overview

                                Okay @Fenr1r @TELE-HO I’ll plan on wearing both watches.

                                1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 3
                                • Brad_OlwinB Offline
                                  Brad_Olwin Moderator
                                  last edited by Brad_Olwin

                                  Sorry all @stromdiddily @sky-runner @fazel @TELE-HO @Oktan @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos , I would like this to end… I find NO differences between A3P, S7 and S9B. Here ya go, a SkiMo and a Trail Run.
                                  SkiMo
                                  ad3768e5-dc4f-4f7e-86f2-8e7401d83462-image.png

                                  Trail Run : A3P and S9B had FusedAlti kick in as you can see.
                                  a63dcbda-be9f-40e1-918c-ccbd4156750f-image.png

                                  Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

                                  Dimitrios KanellopoulosD stromdiddilyS 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 7
                                  • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                                    Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @Brad_Olwin
                                    last edited by Dimitrios Kanellopoulos

                                    @Brad_Olwin me too. Thanks buddy. This is much appreciated

                                    Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                                    Creator of Quantified-Self.io
                                    youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                                    https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                                    https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

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                                    • stromdiddilyS Offline
                                      stromdiddily Gold Members @Brad_Olwin
                                      last edited by

                                      @Brad_Olwin the “issue” isn’t with bigger/distinguished climbs.

                                      Same day, just over 5 mile route on rolling type terrain…22% difference in altitude.

                                      74701c34-612a-4b59-99f6-3582d14b1ded-image.png

                                      f4f17d87-d169-4d8d-a6cf-11a08414b242-image.png

                                      Always carry a flaggon of whiskey for snakebite; and furthermore, always carry a small snake.

                                      User of pretty much every watch since the Ambit 3 Peak. Now back in the family w SV :)

                                      Brad_OlwinB 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 0
                                      • Brad_OlwinB Offline
                                        Brad_Olwin Moderator @stromdiddily
                                        last edited by

                                        @stromdiddily said in Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands:

                                        @Brad_Olwin the “issue” isn’t with bigger/distinguished climbs.

                                        Same day, just over 5 mile route on rolling type terrain…22% difference in altitude.

                                        I often compare my altitude gain with corrections in TrainingPeaks, which I find highly accurate. I do not see this problem with my S9B as you can see below for runs with little altitude gain…I have dozens of these runs too if not hundreds. In fact, I find the S9B overestimates altitude gains on low altitude runs.
                                        010e70de-f1b1-4a8b-b3e4-c677c16dab40-image.png

                                        b3332aa6-a709-4ec8-9e78-bbac0dfd2898-image.png

                                        Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

                                        stromdiddilyS 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                        • stromdiddilyS Offline
                                          stromdiddily Gold Members @Brad_Olwin
                                          last edited by

                                          @Brad_Olwin your experience does not match my own. But I will leave this topic here.

                                          May “missing” elevation be the worst of our problems in 2021 🍻

                                          Always carry a flaggon of whiskey for snakebite; and furthermore, always carry a small snake.

                                          User of pretty much every watch since the Ambit 3 Peak. Now back in the family w SV :)

                                          Brad_OlwinB 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                                          • Brad_OlwinB Offline
                                            Brad_Olwin Moderator @stromdiddily
                                            last edited by

                                            @stromdiddily said in Suunto 9 baro very low elevation gain vs other brands:

                                            @Brad_Olwin your experience does not match my own. But I will leave this topic here.

                                            May “missing” elevation be the worst of our problems in 2021 🍻

                                            My point from your last post was the A3P may not be providing the “correct” altitude gain/loss for comparison. I agree that larger gains/losses typically are more accurate for me and the low altitude runs are substantially more variable. However, when comparing with correction algorithms I find the watches are overestimating more often than underestimating. Altitude is tough to get correct and my benchmarks when running or on skis is to compare the actual summit altitude with the watch, the watches are often quite close. As has been discussed before, clothing, wind, and I suspect arm movements affect the calculations and the sensor. In my experience none of the Suunto watches I have are different from each other. My only other comparison is with an Apple Watch and I found excellent agreement with gain/loss on Apple Watches compared to Suunto. I can post a large number of those comparisons too.

                                            On a final note, many of you know I field test for Suunto. This is part of the field testing and many testers compare more than one brand. Based on what I know and what I have observed from my experience and others I don’t believe there is a consistent problem here with watches that have barometers. The GPS altitude watches are another story and I have a different opinion there.

                                            Vector/T6c/Ambit 3 Peak/S5 Copper/S3/S7 Ti/S9 baro Ti/S9P Ti/S9PP Ti/Vertical Ti/Race Ti/RaceS/Ocean/Wing

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