System update – PXDZ.201119.005.A1

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@fazel for now your watch will be ok. Lets see what happens with your next watch the s7 (?) and others…

[brotzfrog10]

@pavel-samokha I don’t believe what I said was as false. I never said updates wouldn’t happen or they the watch wasn’t burning developed. I said it seemed to me Suunto wasn’t sure what customer this watch was targeting, when if they had just included their full Suunto watch app they would of had the best smart watch/fitness watch combo on the market. They didn’t and they haven’t updated the sunnto training part of the watch since launch (just keep updating the maps portion) but the sunnto training app is no closer to what sunnto 5 or 7 offers them when the 7 first launched which is a shame. Had they just done that I think it would be the best smart watch on the market. It’s a huge missed opportunity and I think the price decrease on the 7 reflects the missed opportunity as you only lower it by $100 if sales are extremely soft.

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@brotzfrog10 having being a bit involved at the launch of the S7 it’s not that you are not right…

But the s7 was targeted to the SmartWatch market, the people that read Android Police for example and other XDA members. People who do not care so much lets say todo a set of intervals or record with a heart rate belt, because they will never buy one.

That is the launch of the product and not how / where it will evolve to.

At launch the team got the top 3 feature requests and issues and in those issues and requests there was nothing in regards to what you mention.

To be fair, wanting a product to become what one would like/love is different from what its made for.

But you are right on missing a market, as you described it, but is that market a big audience? Bigger than Android Wear enthousiasts and soccer moms? I dont think so.

[pavel.samokha]

@brotzfrog10 what I mean is that I believe what you said here

@brotzfrog10 said in System update – PXDZ.201119.005.A1:

It’s also been a year now so if something as simple as external sensor support was coming it would have been added already. Sportygo and even google fit for wear os already have sensor support so it’s not a limitation of the operating system. It’s simply a choice by sunnto which sadly makes no sense

is wrong.

[brotzfrog10]

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos Yes I think the market would want that simple option of connecting Bluetooth accessories. You cut off a rather launch group of fitness watch people because of not even having the option to connect BT accessories. Two biggest smart watch/fitness watch brands by sales are Apple and Garmin as I’m sure you know. All their devices (save for the lesser selling bands by garmin) have sensor connectivity. Suunto should be looking to compete with those brands as those are the watches people are buying. Wearos should just be a means to that end. The goal shouldn’t be to have a great selling wearos device as it’s such a small market share and not a major driver of smart watch sales. Android users aren’t rushing out to buy smart watches. The sales data is pretty clear on that. Regardless though even google fit which is built into all wear os devices has BT sensor connectivity. Plus attaching the Suunto name to a watch draws in a certain type of customer as well, one who is looking for an outdoor performance watch. Sunnto should be building on their brand name not undercutting what they are know for. It would be like Nike doing men’s suits, in that it wouldn’t make sense with what the brand is known for. Just like your point about soccer moms. How many soccer moms are looking for a Suunto watch or a smart watch at all let alone the size of the S7?

[fazel]

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos I briefly did some Google Scholar searching on HRV. The academic research is free to use. If I were Suunto, I’d be consuming and condensing the findings of this work in preparation for creating/testing my own algorithms. I’d take a similar approach with the Google OS. I wouldn’t want to be dependent on anyone. The 9’s UI is solid IMO. We can haggle over smaller points, but I think the platform is there to build on.

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@brotzfrog10

Just like your point about soccer moms. How many soccer moms are looking for a Suunto watch or a smart watch at all let alone the size of the S7?

Many. See reddit and other forums that the discussion is going on.

Launch trailer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BQ5nbmGtYA

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@fazel RD costs a lot but yes I do agree

[isazi]

@fazel lots of published research in sport physiology etc. is free, and this is the approach e.g. used by Runalyze (they even link to the research on which their computed metrics are based). Things are probably more complex in places like the US where those same ideas can be covered by patents.

[brotzfrog10]

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos I don’t know if that’s a great litmus test. If it’s about looking at forums just look at this forum to see how important sensor support is. Watch DC rainmaker and chase the summits reviews on the S7 and how frustrating not having sensor support is. These are two people who get thousands on eyeballs monthly on their content. They are huge drivers of smart watch products. Also think about it this way having sensor support in the app isn’t going to drive away any customer but not having it will. Has anyone on Reddit or another forum said I won’t buy that watch because it has Bluetooth sensor support? Well if that’s the case I hate to tell them that WearOs already has that feature through google fit so I guess they aren’t buying a wearos device anyway.

[brotzfrog10]

@pavel-samokha I’m fine being shown to be wrong and admitting it. But let’s play this through. Suunto known for sports performance and already having a well established training platforms is developing a new sunnto training app for a wear os device under their own brand. Yet they don’t port over all the features that already exist within their own sports watches. Isn’t it reasonable to discern that those features not ported over were don’t so for a specific reason? If not then why not just work to duplicate all the same features?

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@brotzfrog10 correct.

To be honest that was also one of the Suunto fears when launching this from a tester perpective. That people would demand more in terms of an expectation

[pavel.samokha]

@brotzfrog10 said in System update – PXDZ.201119.005.A1:

Isn’t it reasonable to discern that those features not ported over were don’t so for a specific reason? If not then why not just work to duplicate all the same features?

As simple as that, because S7 is completely different platform from S9/…
What may seem “just work to duplicate” from end-user perspective may be really complex goal to achieve from development perspective.

[Fenr1r]

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos said in System update – PXDZ.201119.005.A1:

To be honest that was also one of the Suunto fears when launching this from a tester perpective. That people would demand more in terms of an expectation

Sweaty flashbacks on those early Spartan months?

[Aleksander H]

@brotzfrog10 said in System update – PXDZ.201119.005.A1:

Sunnto should be building on their brand name not undercutting what they are know for.

Isn’t outdoor adventure one of the main things Suunto is known for? Both my compasses are Suunto, I originally bought the Suunto Ambit 3 to go hiking and two of my friends who work as adventure guides wear Suunto Core watches. I would have thought the mapping and navigation capabilities that they’ve been working on, on the S7 fit perfectly within the Suunto brand. This may just be me, but to me Suunto as a brand has always been about going out on adventures in the mountains/forest. Not saying I don’t wish I had ble hrm, I just don’t agree that they aren’t building on their brand name.

[brotzfrog10]

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos there’s I think always going to be that issue within the tech industry period, especially with smart watches and mobile devices with how frequently features are added and it has quickly become a features arm raise between the top brands. However sensor support isn’t the same as EKG support or an SPo2 sensor (which are all hardware specific issues and probably still not ready for prime time anyway when it comes to actual daily use). However Bluetooth sensor support has been on watches for close to a decade now. This is an extremely basic feature and one that is software driven. Plus code already exists for how to create it for WearOs as evidenced by the several other apps who have it. It’s kind of like a missing the forest for the trees kind of thing. Basically nail the basics first then start trying to find your niche in the WearOs market (which I still think that niche should be the only real sports performance smart watch on the market). Sunnto can disagree and say it’s soccer moms and Fitbit users essential they want to target and that’s fine but again sensor support isn’t going to drive those customers away but will simply bring in others.

[Dimitrios Kanellopoulos]

@brotzfrog10 the s7 was build as the first watch to utilize that low power processor and give you a good run time on wearOS.

Using BT is using the full processor. They didn’t want that. The specs are clear.

while we can debate with emprical examples who is wrong or right about the target market and what money it makes, Suunto should know better where to move via their data, income , sales etc.

[Aleksander H]

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos said in System update – PXDZ.201119.005.A1:

@brotzfrog10 the s7 was build as the first watch to utilize that low power processor and give you a good run time on wearOS.

This may have been covered already, apologies if it has. When using the sports app on the S7. Is it running only on the low power processor? If so, would supporting BLE devices no longer allow this? I had trouble understanding the power consumption problem before, but if this is the issue, I understand.

[brotzfrog10]

@Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos I appreciate your explanation for that for sure. However my concern with that statement is that if someone doesn’t want to use the sensor they don’t have to therefore not effecting battery life. This isn’t something that needs to be running in the background even when not being used. Once again it goes to opening the product to the broadest market possible. Plus back to your comment about Reddit users looking for a watch like the sunnto 7 along with your soccer mom comment. Watches in that market don’t have a 50mm diameter. I honestly believe (again my opinion) that a watch that size isn’t on the wishlist for a daily soccer mom and regular working woman). Sales of other smart watches bare that out. Other WearOs watches, Samsung, Fitbit, Apple and all Garmin save for the Fenix line are much smaller then The S7 and those are the watches driving sales. The 50mm and bigger watches are more niche amongst sports driven individuals (again look at fenix line, your own sunnto5, and 9, and the higher end of the forerunner line).

[Bulkan]

@brotzfrog10 DcGarminMoneyMaker… well, if a watch is not for triathlon or zwift is not good enough for him.