Suunto ZoneSense

Oxhill_Runner

The algorithm seems to need more development. Below is the ZoneSense plot from 5x hill repeats to max effort on a treadmill.
When running endurance pace I get a steady 142-146 bpm threshold. But no estimate of anaerobic from this workout?
Seems I barely left my aerobic threshold zone

Oxhill_Runner

Pic attached this time

The_77

@Oxhill_Runner the intervals aren’t long enough, from the resources given (and my experience) they need to be nearing 4 minutes long to get into anaerobic range from ZS - although you can see cumulative fatigue building up from the graph.

Steady state efforts and longer intensity is what it’s designed to log.

Oxhill_Runner

@The_77

Thanks for sharing 77

Brad_Olwin

Another example of the utility of ZoneSense for real time:
I’ve been traveling with my wife and at Sea Level for almost 2 weeks. After returning home to 1600m did a Tempo workout and then a Recovery Run the next day where I felt tired and slow…ZS had me anaerobic at very low HR.

The next day another Tempo workout where I felt really good. ZS was much different!

My point is a tool for real time training, I am not paying much attention to my HR zones anymore! Good for longer intervals, these were 8 min Tempo. I would not use for anything less than about 4 min. Most helpful for longer runs.

thanasis

@Brad_Olwin said in Suunto ZoneSense:

Another example of the utility of ZoneSense for real time:
I’ve been traveling with my wife and at Sea Level for almost 2 weeks. After returning home to 1600m did a Tempo workout and then a Recovery Run the next day where I felt tired and slow…ZS had me anaerobic at very low HR.

The next day another Tempo workout where I felt really good. ZS was much different!

My point is a tool for real time training, I am not paying much attention to my HR zones anymore! Good for longer intervals, these were 8 min Tempo. I would not use for anything less than about 4 min. Most helpful for longer runs.

Thank you for your insights . Can you help me please understand what do you mean by “not paying attention to your HR zones “?
Do you feel that your realtime indication is enough or that you don’t care about adjusting the Zones ?
Thanks

Brad_Olwin

@thanasis
I keep my zones somewhere in the middle of my ZS parameters but not paying much attention. I typically run by RPE and now use ZS for Recovery and long runs, Not paying much attention to HR zones these days. I don’t see the point in adjusting HR zones as they are a moving target. I am not using ZS to set zones, I think not appropriate or necessary. I am using ZS to gauge my effort in real time.

VoiGAS

Like posted a few times it seems to be important to have a good quality regarding the HRV values. Is there an easy way to find that out? I read about exporting to Runalyze and interpret the form of the cloud in the diagram. But thats a little bit like Black Magic for me…
Is there a way to see it in the Suunto App? Or if its only possible in Runalyze, than maybe limits of a value, e.g. “a maximum of 5% artifacts is good”?

Edit: But I think thats bad, right?

sartoric

@VoiGAS
pretty bad. it should looks more as a straight line

Inge Nallsson

@VoiGAS Yes, bad. Of course it depends on the scale, but if you look at ca minutes 35, you see a sort of background black line. Ideally the whole recording should be like that, with a few spurious dots elsewhere. You’ve got a ‘cloud’ of dots…

Theo Lakerveld

I’m starting to get convinced that ZoneSense is very useful. Have a look at the ZS vs HR / Power graphs for this workout ( https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/aktivitus-10wk-ironteam-endurance/szr-aktivitus-2h-v1 ) . This complied very well with my (subjective) feeling.

Liviu Nastasa

@Inge-Nallsson I understand that in the first 10 minutes, the algorithm needs some data to create a baseline, but in my case it happens so often to have issues with the conductivity of the chest HR strap so I was wondering if the “setup” period is relevant in any way or how does that affect the indications later on.
For example, this morning, the first 10 minutes were affected by erroneous readings of the HR, until the sweat creates the conductivity to allow decent readings. Pace was constant, flat terrain.

I would say that the indications from ZS are reflecting the way I feel, but I can’t keep from asking myself if the “baseline” period is not actually affecting the later results or by how much.
HRV Runalyze.png
That’s what I see in Runalyze, there is a certain jump in the R-R values when the stability of the readings is improved.

Otherwise, the readings are ok … the interpretation seems inline with what I feel…but am I not fooling myself?

sartoric

@Liviu-Nastasa
I guess it’s normal (or maybe not unusual) to have some scattered values at the beginning, and that’s the main reason for calibration.

As you can see, despite the mess , there are some good sets of readings that are (very probably) used to calibrate ZS baseline

Brad_Olwin

@Theo-Lakerveld looks great!

VoiGAS

@Inge-Nallsson @sartoric Thank you! Then I will first work on the quality, the belt is already washed. Then I will try it again with Zonesense and hope for the best

ChrisA

@Theo-Lakerveld from your screenshot it’s also nicely visible that Zonesense tracks the changes caused by rising your HR with some delay, due to the time that is needed for them to effect your system and why it won’t work for fast paced intervals accordingly.

Inge Nallsson

@Liviu-Nastasa As @sartoric says, it is not unusual to see larger swings in the heart rate variability at the beginning of an exercise, and even getting scattered readings there, and from the plain text and videos Suunto have published (I’ve not read the scientific papers) they disregard the whole first 10 minutes, waiting for the body to reach a balance (homeostasis) within its systems.

As for a baseline, and please correct me if I’m wrong (Suunto people), there already is a general one established through the first couple of ZS registered activities. How much of that is kept or adjusted by consecutive recordings I’ve not seen any mention of. But the day-by-day difference to the longterm baseline should not start to be looked at until after the discarded first 10 minutes.

I will try to inform myself better by reading those published science papers, but there will always be a ‘black box’ of implementation from, in this case, Suunto.

Oxhill_Runner

@Theo-Lakerveld
Hi Theo
I followed @Brad_Olwin advise this weekend on a 2hr trail run with a lot of climbs. I noticed a similar trend to yiur data in that the DDFA score increased to a max at the start of a climb (a drop on the graph) before dropping and going negative after the summit.

Anyone know why this happens? You can see a clear lag between DDFA and HR which I can understand but why does your DDFA improve when HR increases initially? Just curious !

Brad_Olwin

@Oxhill_Runner DDFA is not measuring HR. There is a lot of information about this from Suunto.
https://youtu.be/bD3O4BZ9vIc?si=JXKmquFxU2TXahXx

Oxhill_Runner

@Brad_Olwin
Hi Brad

I get that it’s measuring HRV, something I’ve been tracking with HRV4Traing for a few years now too.

I was curious why the DDFA score improves initially as intensity (and so HR) increases before decreasing and ZS moves out of aerobic towards anaerobic zones.

Seems a bit counter intuitive that’s all ! Maybe a question for a cardiologist