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    Sleep Tracking

    Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved Suunto 9 Peak
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    • ? Offline
      A Former User @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
      last edited by A Former User

      @dimitrios-kanellopoulos Yeah…

      I remember Alex Hutchinson (of Endure fame) mentioning some research stating people actually sleep worse and get anxiety about their sleep, because gadgets tell them how bad it was. You know… You had 20 sleep disturbances and have been awake for 90 minutes during your sleep… Your deep sleep was 16 minutes. This kind of stuff.

      I hope the pendulum swings back. It’s about time we collect less data but what we do collect is actually pertinent to our well being. Trying to deduce your brain waves from wrist movement, or overall recovery from a randomly chosen period to quickly measure HRV isn’t that.

      Dimitrios KanellopoulosD W 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
      • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
        Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @Guest
        last edited by

        @nickk yup

        Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
        Creator of Quantified-Self.io
        youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
        https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
        https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

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        • W Offline
          wakarimasen Silver Members @Guest
          last edited by

          @nickk said in Sleep Tracking:

          @dimitrios-kanellopoulos Yeah…

          I remember Alex Hutchinson (of Endure fame) mentioning some research stating people actually sleep worse and get anxiety about their sleep, because gadgets tell them how bad it was. You know… You had 20 sleep disturbances and have been awake for 90 minutes during your sleep… Your deep sleep was 16 minutes. This kind of stuff.

          Yup - that’s me 😖

          Suunto Race Titanium
          Suunto Ambit3 Peak
          Polar H10
          Polar OH1

          Dimitrios KanellopoulosD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
          • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
            Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @wakarimasen
            last edited by

            @wakarimasen and me sometimes.

            • Oh shit , this night the guys came and I drunk 3 beers and look at my heart rate now. Trying to sleep and it’s f6373 like 80bpm. Oh man I am going to have a bad sleep again and how will I train tomorrow. I wished I had just watched a series.

            Me a couple of years ago :

            • yeah what a great night, I’ll sleep like a bird don’t even need to watch tv. (And it was like that)

            Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
            Creator of Quantified-Self.io
            youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
            https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
            https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

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            • W Offline
              wakarimasen Silver Members @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
              last edited by

              @dimitrios-kanellopoulos
              WHY IS MY WATCH JUDGING ME…

              Suunto Race Titanium
              Suunto Ambit3 Peak
              Polar H10
              Polar OH1

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              • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @wakarimasen
                last edited by

                @wakarimasen because you ask it to “guide” you.

                I agree that it it’s guiding is fine, but ain’t then a point when you need no guidance ?

                That said we are out of topic. The guys need help with accuracy in sleep tracking.

                Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                Creator of Quantified-Self.io
                youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

                ? W 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 0
                • ? Offline
                  A Former User @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
                  last edited by

                  @dimitrios-kanellopoulos I beg to differ! We are helping!

                  Why track accurately something that shouldn’t be tracked at all? 😰

                  Dimitrios KanellopoulosD 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                  • Dimitrios KanellopoulosD Offline
                    Dimitrios Kanellopoulos Community Manager @Guest
                    last edited by

                    @nickk of course you differ. And actually that’s great. Thank you for that. And mostly for the debate.

                    Community Manager / Admin @Suunto
                    Creator of Quantified-Self.io
                    youtube.com/c/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                    https://instagram.com/dimitrioskanellopoulos
                    https://www.strava.com/athletes/7586105

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                    • W Offline
                      wakarimasen Silver Members @Dimitrios Kanellopoulos
                      last edited by

                      @dimitrios-kanellopoulos Only joking @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos
                      I find sleep tracking pretty helpful, and especially like to understand sleep phases. I’m assuming it’s also used to ‘inform’ recovery and resource levels.
                      Unfortunately, I find my S9B not as accurate for me, compared my old Vantage V. I understand this can be personal (and may be based on the sensor used) but am not worried too much, as I don’t want to stress too much about it.
                      I do wonder if the S9P would be more accurate though…😉

                      Suunto Race Titanium
                      Suunto Ambit3 Peak
                      Polar H10
                      Polar OH1

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                      • Patrick LöfflerP Offline
                        Patrick Löffler Silver Members
                        last edited by

                        I am currently trying out the Suunto 7. I like the sleep tracking very much! I know also already discussed. But again: The hardware of the S9P has at least the same capabilities. So why not improve the software to the same level? Please do not tell me it is a licensing question. If so, just get it licensed. 🙂

                        Apple Watch Ultra (currently on my wrist)
                        Thinking about going back to Suunto 9 Peak

                        ? DMytroD 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
                        • ? Offline
                          A Former User @Patrick Löffler
                          last edited by

                          @patrick-löffler Just get it licensed… And who’s gonna pay for that? It was actually quite nice for Suunto to add all the FB pieces like daily stress, body resources, VO2 Max to existing S9 a whole year after the series went out. I don’t know another manufacturer, Garmin including, who licenses new third party bits for existing units and does so free of charge.

                          Anyways, it’s not just licensing. S7 being WearOS is a completely different animal (read: codebase) than other Sx watches. I’d imagine S9P and S9 are pretty much the same code. So, even without FB licenses involved, pulling features from one line and into another, let alone specifically S9P… I think it’s a tough ask.

                          Not impossible, but certainly not a question of removing comments around a code block…

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                          • DMytroD Offline
                            DMytro @Patrick Löffler
                            last edited by

                            @patrick-löffler I think it was mentioned somewhere, that broader sleep feature analysis might come to s9p eventually, as well as 1s daily HR (and spO2?) tracking. Dunno whether the same holds for s9B and whether firstbeat/suunto algos will be used.

                            ? 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 1
                            • ? Offline
                              A Former User @DMytro
                              last edited by A Former User

                              @dmytro I don’t see how we can have 1 sec continuous HR and keep current 7 day battery life on S9P. There will have to be an awful lot of optimizing happening elsewhere for this to happen.

                              Also, I hope Suunto doesn’t go and try develop their own sleep analysis.

                              Even Garmin with their practically unlimited resources had to abandon a home grown machine learning cloud solution and switch to FB algos running on the watch. And accuracy of everyone else, who had a stab at it, be it Polar, Oura, or even WHOOP, leaves a lot to be desired.

                              I’d rather Suunto focus on other stuff… You know, multiple sensors per type, full Stryd integration like COROS, structured workouts, multiple S+ fields that get persisted between activities. Maybe fixing those zombie notifications and making notifications actionable, i.e. being able to dismiss them on the watch or act on them when connected to Android phone. Weather, like Polar, would be nice. As will be sunrise/sunset calendar like Garmin or COROS. Multiple alarms? Multiple timers? Maybe music controls for the phone…

                              Super-basic map outline for loaded routes, around waypoints or turns, so you know which trail to take…

                              A man can dream, and his dreams aren’t about sleep tracking 😊

                              DMytroD 2 Replies Last reply Reply Quote 2
                              • DMytroD Offline
                                DMytro @Guest
                                last edited by

                                @nickk s9p already has LEDs always on for HR monitoring, but the data gets acquired only every 12min as part of legacy code from s9b (source: chasethesummit review on s9b, commentaries from dcrainmaker).
                                Suunto already uses its algos for sleep tracking on s5/s9b/s9p, works spot on for me. So, if they continue development - great, of they get 3d party algos - great as well. Wherever they lead, I’ll follow.

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                                • DMytroD Offline
                                  DMytro @Guest
                                  last edited by

                                  @nickk this turns outline you mention might be coming sooner than you think:)
                                  There was a survey on that matter quite recently and they don’t make surveys for nothing I don’t think.

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                                  • ? Offline
                                    A Former User @DMytro
                                    last edited by A Former User

                                    @dmytro said in Sleep Tracking:

                                    @nickk s9p already has LEDs always on for HR monitoring, but the data gets acquired only every 12min as part of legacy code from s9b (source: chasethesummit review on s9b, commentaries from dcrainmaker).

                                    Just checked on mine. It doesn’t. It’s off most of the time, and it takes upward of 8-10 sec to acquire a lock on HR if done on demand.

                                    Suunto already uses its algos for sleep tracking on s5/s9b/s9p, works spot on for me.

                                    Except the only thing provided right now is awake/sleep time and “deep” sleep, with the exact definition of deep sleep being up for grabs. The awake time isn’t terribly accurate. Unless you get up and walk in the middle of the night, it might miss quite a few minutes when you aren’t sleeping and actually know that.

                                    Now, if you were to go full sleep analysis, you’d have to break out REM (exceedingly hard I’m hearing) and your deep sleep must be N2/N3 slow wave sleep and not just lack of body movement. So far only Fitbit scores okeyish in that department.

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                                    • DMytroD Offline
                                      DMytro @Guest
                                      last edited by

                                      @nickk Ok, I don’t have an s9p so won’t argue, but most watches are able to provide 24/7 1s HR with reasonable battery life, don’t think s9p would be an exception.
                                      Yes, I agree that sleep is not as detailed as competition but at least start/end times look reasonable for me. As for awake time - can’t judge as I sleep through the night and rarely get any awake time.

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                                      • ? Offline
                                        A Former User @DMytro
                                        last edited by A Former User

                                        @dmytro said in Sleep Tracking:

                                        @nickk Ok, I don’t have an s9p so won’t argue, but most watches are able to provide 24/7 1s HR with reasonable battery life, don’t think s9p would be an exception.

                                        Yeah, about that. Not most, no… Only Fitbit and Garmin and recently Polar, after they released Precision Prime sensor as part of their Vantage series. Before that Polar was pretty much every 5-10 min on all devices that supported OHR, like their fitness bands and M430. Poor M600 never got daily HR at all, even though it had enough battery me thinks. In fact, while LEDs are always on for recent Polar watches, I’m not sure their sampling rate is as fine grained as Fitbit and Garmin. COROS remains every 5-10 minutes, even on super-bulky Vertix with its big battery. I think Apple Watch is not continuous either, at least prior to the current gen. Neither are any of the WearOS watches.

                                        As for awake time - can’t judge as I sleep through the night and rarely get any awake time.

                                        I don’t always wake up in the middle of the night, but when I do… I can be awake for 10-15 minutes, can check my watch, and in the morning it would still report no awake time or just a minute or two.

                                        I don’t blame Suunto. Sleep analysis is hard, even for such basic things as being awake. Which is why I hope Suunto will get algos from an established source like FB or work out a deal with somebody like Oura. Maybe Google decides to turn Fitbit into Firstbeat. That would actually be pretty cool.

                                        Jamie BGJ 1 Reply Last reply Reply Quote 2
                                        • Patrick LöfflerP Offline
                                          Patrick Löffler Silver Members
                                          last edited by Patrick Löffler

                                          Thank you very much for all these insights. To me already the discussion is valuable. I have tried several different devices. Including Oura Ring, Whoop 3.0, Fitbit Sense, Polar Vantage V2, Garmin Forerunner 945 LTE. I know it is not scientific at all and I know it’s a lot of different devices. 🙂 But Suunto actually is one of the few of those devices that can really differentiate between being in bed reading and sleeping. So Suunto definitely has some great working tech already. And at least for me tracking my sleep has lead to some changes in behavior already. Good ones. I go to bed on a much more regular schedule and I can see when I had a late dinner or sleeping at higher altitudes. And I find that interesting. I still can enjoy a good dinner or a glass of wine… and I’m not obsessed. Or not too much at least. 🙂 So sleep tracking for me is a super helpful tool.

                                          Apple Watch Ultra (currently on my wrist)
                                          Thinking about going back to Suunto 9 Peak

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                                          • Jamie BGJ Offline
                                            Jamie BG Bronze Member @Guest
                                            last edited by Jamie BG

                                            @nickk
                                            And even then despite 1s continous tracking with HR no one graphs it like that. S7 is graphed at 10min average?, Fitbit is a 10min? (or 5min can’t remember, but pretty sure it was 10min) average, Garmin is a 2min average.
                                            Apple is dynamic - means at points its continous, and other times its periodic. They also don’t mention if they use actual points to graph or an average and if so the average duration.

                                            You are incorrect about wear os - Suunto 7 is continous - 10min average graph. Also Fossil has cardiogram app so can adjust to continous (though not advisable as their battery sucks without 24/7 monitoring so continous wipes their battery). Also can used 3rd party apps like Cardiogram/Trace etc to get continous tracking, though again due to battery life it isn’t advisable. That will all change with Wear 3.0 as it will include using sensors on the low power coprocesser like the S7 does, and considering Tizen and Fitbit already do that, it will definitely be included for all.

                                            Tizen have a continous measure option, but again not sure of their graphing method.

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