Sleep Tracking
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@dimitrios-kanellopoulos I think the only truly better algo that exists out there is Fitbit, and even that doesn’t really give you anywhere close to real sleep phases. I’m not sure it will ever be possible to match lab grade polysomnography with a watch on your wrist. But even if we could do that, then what? How can you make yourself have more REM or N2/N3 sleep?
It’s like those running dynamics metrics. Very cool in theory but hardly something you can consciously change.
I wouldn’t be surprised if in a few years all this faux analysis go back to where it had started a while back: a graph of your sleep movement, sleep/awake tracking (the only thing watches get mostly right), and a general sleep quality score that would take into account many other components such as duration, regularity, restlessness, etc.
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@nickk agreed.
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@nickk however
This guy
https://twitter.com/BStulberg?s=09
Wisely says
Part of the reason that so many people are so tired is because they track so many things. If you are tracking your sleep, then, in a sense, you are working even when you are sleeping. Same goes for eating, taking steps, and so on. It is an utterly exhausting way to live.
But that is another case and maybe why I don’t give a dime about all this in a personal level.
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@dimitrios-kanellopoulos Yeah…
I remember Alex Hutchinson (of Endure fame) mentioning some research stating people actually sleep worse and get anxiety about their sleep, because gadgets tell them how bad it was. You know… You had 20 sleep disturbances and have been awake for 90 minutes during your sleep… Your deep sleep was 16 minutes. This kind of stuff.
I hope the pendulum swings back. It’s about time we collect less data but what we do collect is actually pertinent to our well being. Trying to deduce your brain waves from wrist movement, or overall recovery from a randomly chosen period to quickly measure HRV isn’t that.
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@nickk yup
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@nickk said in Sleep Tracking:
@dimitrios-kanellopoulos Yeah…
I remember Alex Hutchinson (of Endure fame) mentioning some research stating people actually sleep worse and get anxiety about their sleep, because gadgets tell them how bad it was. You know… You had 20 sleep disturbances and have been awake for 90 minutes during your sleep… Your deep sleep was 16 minutes. This kind of stuff.
Yup - that’s me
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@wakarimasen and me sometimes.
- Oh shit , this night the guys came and I drunk 3 beers and look at my heart rate now. Trying to sleep and it’s f6373 like 80bpm. Oh man I am going to have a bad sleep again and how will I train tomorrow. I wished I had just watched a series.
Me a couple of years ago :
- yeah what a great night, I’ll sleep like a bird don’t even need to watch tv. (And it was like that)
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@dimitrios-kanellopoulos
WHY IS MY WATCH JUDGING ME… -
@wakarimasen because you ask it to “guide” you.
I agree that it it’s guiding is fine, but ain’t then a point when you need no guidance ?
That said we are out of topic. The guys need help with accuracy in sleep tracking.
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@dimitrios-kanellopoulos I beg to differ! We are helping!
Why track accurately something that shouldn’t be tracked at all?
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@nickk of course you differ. And actually that’s great. Thank you for that. And mostly for the debate.
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@dimitrios-kanellopoulos Only joking @Dimitrios-Kanellopoulos
I find sleep tracking pretty helpful, and especially like to understand sleep phases. I’m assuming it’s also used to ‘inform’ recovery and resource levels.
Unfortunately, I find my S9B not as accurate for me, compared my old Vantage V. I understand this can be personal (and may be based on the sensor used) but am not worried too much, as I don’t want to stress too much about it.
I do wonder if the S9P would be more accurate though…
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I am currently trying out the Suunto 7. I like the sleep tracking very much! I know also already discussed. But again: The hardware of the S9P has at least the same capabilities. So why not improve the software to the same level? Please do not tell me it is a licensing question. If so, just get it licensed.
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@patrick-löffler Just get it licensed… And who’s gonna pay for that? It was actually quite nice for Suunto to add all the FB pieces like daily stress, body resources, VO2 Max to existing S9 a whole year after the series went out. I don’t know another manufacturer, Garmin including, who licenses new third party bits for existing units and does so free of charge.
Anyways, it’s not just licensing. S7 being WearOS is a completely different animal (read: codebase) than other Sx watches. I’d imagine S9P and S9 are pretty much the same code. So, even without FB licenses involved, pulling features from one line and into another, let alone specifically S9P… I think it’s a tough ask.
Not impossible, but certainly not a question of removing comments around a code block…
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@patrick-löffler I think it was mentioned somewhere, that broader sleep feature analysis might come to s9p eventually, as well as 1s daily HR (and spO2?) tracking. Dunno whether the same holds for s9B and whether firstbeat/suunto algos will be used.
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@dmytro I don’t see how we can have 1 sec continuous HR and keep current 7 day battery life on S9P. There will have to be an awful lot of optimizing happening elsewhere for this to happen.
Also, I hope Suunto doesn’t go and try develop their own sleep analysis.
Even Garmin with their practically unlimited resources had to abandon a home grown machine learning cloud solution and switch to FB algos running on the watch. And accuracy of everyone else, who had a stab at it, be it Polar, Oura, or even WHOOP, leaves a lot to be desired.
I’d rather Suunto focus on other stuff… You know, multiple sensors per type, full Stryd integration like COROS, structured workouts, multiple S+ fields that get persisted between activities. Maybe fixing those zombie notifications and making notifications actionable, i.e. being able to dismiss them on the watch or act on them when connected to Android phone. Weather, like Polar, would be nice. As will be sunrise/sunset calendar like Garmin or COROS. Multiple alarms? Multiple timers? Maybe music controls for the phone…
Super-basic map outline for loaded routes, around waypoints or turns, so you know which trail to take…
A man can dream, and his dreams aren’t about sleep tracking
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@nickk s9p already has LEDs always on for HR monitoring, but the data gets acquired only every 12min as part of legacy code from s9b (source: chasethesummit review on s9b, commentaries from dcrainmaker).
Suunto already uses its algos for sleep tracking on s5/s9b/s9p, works spot on for me. So, if they continue development - great, of they get 3d party algos - great as well. Wherever they lead, I’ll follow. -
@nickk this turns outline you mention might be coming sooner than you think:)
There was a survey on that matter quite recently and they don’t make surveys for nothing I don’t think. -
@dmytro said in Sleep Tracking:
@nickk s9p already has LEDs always on for HR monitoring, but the data gets acquired only every 12min as part of legacy code from s9b (source: chasethesummit review on s9b, commentaries from dcrainmaker).
Just checked on mine. It doesn’t. It’s off most of the time, and it takes upward of 8-10 sec to acquire a lock on HR if done on demand.
Suunto already uses its algos for sleep tracking on s5/s9b/s9p, works spot on for me.
Except the only thing provided right now is awake/sleep time and “deep” sleep, with the exact definition of deep sleep being up for grabs. The awake time isn’t terribly accurate. Unless you get up and walk in the middle of the night, it might miss quite a few minutes when you aren’t sleeping and actually know that.
Now, if you were to go full sleep analysis, you’d have to break out REM (exceedingly hard I’m hearing) and your deep sleep must be N2/N3 slow wave sleep and not just lack of body movement. So far only Fitbit scores okeyish in that department.
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@nickk Ok, I don’t have an s9p so won’t argue, but most watches are able to provide 24/7 1s HR with reasonable battery life, don’t think s9p would be an exception.
Yes, I agree that sleep is not as detailed as competition but at least start/end times look reasonable for me. As for awake time - can’t judge as I sleep through the night and rarely get any awake time.